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  1. #31

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    If I sense they are perpetual victims I bring out the Spartan philosophy. That is, the philosophy of no philosophy. The Spartan lifestyle, a philosophy of action.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think perhaps I over thought this thread.

    Yet, again.

  3. #33
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Depends how obvious it is that they have no intention of changing things. Usually though, I tend to 1) get to know them well enough to make sure I've correctly seen reoccuring patterns 2) if there's reoccuring complaining, I become more blunt than usual and point out what is not working for them or the root cause I see 3) Be wary if they are too embracing of or too prickly towards suggestion made. 4) Let them be if they aren't interested in finding a solution/resolution.

    The less I'm invested in them, the less likely I am to bother with the possible conflict that could ensue. The more obvious it is that they are being foolish and enjoy not changing while complaining bitterly, the more likely I am to not get involved, while making it distasteful for them to wallow around me. It depends on whether children are being affected by their bad choices, if I am being affected, or if it's mostly them. If it's the first two, I'll make a bigger effort to try to impact their perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    Make certain you truly understand what is going on before responding to a situation. You could otherwise do more harm than good.
    This is very true, and why I could be seen to be an enabler, when I am really allowing the person to "vent" and to hear more of the situation before making judgment. Not being quick to dismiss people also means not being quick to judge, and that allows for a more accurate picture to form. Once I have enough info, then I either will involve myself or quickly detach.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #34
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    Sometimes if your listening to people or acknowledging what they're saying you're allowing them to engage in a kind of emotional detox, which is good, probably the very definition of a vent, although at other times listening and acknowledging can construed as providing support or concuring which might just lead to them becoming habituated to behaving a certain way. They could be that way already.

    Hmm, could be a lot of my training from work kicking in here but I tend to think first about how its going to effect you personally as being that persons sounding platform. If you're doing that you could well be helping them to co-regulate their emotions, if they're a repeat customer for that sort of thing, even if they arent, that's at best tedious and at worst will burn you out. I've read good books suggesting that people should be more cognizant of that when choosing friends and partners, that's more significant than random connects online but it probably still matters.

    I been thinking for a while about posting about this, there's an author I know who writes about cognizant people being like emotional "firebreaks" in their social context, stopping the circulation of emotional toxicity. This could be the same thing but I dont know. Could be forum dynamics just. Havent read any good books on that topic.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think some people have natural resistance to getting dragged into another person's crap. They can provide a decent firebreak. Other people are too sensitive just because of their nature, and they need to stay away from such people or they feel worn down and poisoned. Protean and I have gabbed some on this topic in private, and it came up that people with a history of having to work through crap might become immune or desensitized to it... so they can often play a good "firewall" for these people and actually grasp where they're coming from without being swallowed by the dark... but at the same time, the OP-labeled victims can smell said person a mile away and flock to them like sharks to get what they need, so maybe it's not the best situation for the tempered firewall person.

    In any case, no one is impenetrable, and even the normally stolid people need to get away from being mired in other people's crap, for at least a while.... to avoid (1) getting worn down OR (2) getting numb as a different sort of protective measure.

    I'm not sure what topics like trolling and someone's personal animosity resulting in stalking has to do with this thread... but whatever.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Sometimes if your listening to people or acknowledging what they're saying you're allowing them to engage in a kind of emotional detox, which is good, probably the very definition of a vent, although at other times listening and acknowledging can construed as providing support or concuring which might just lead to them becoming habituated to behaving a certain way. They could be that way already.

    Hmm, could be a lot of my training from work kicking in here but I tend to think first about how its going to effect you personally as being that persons sounding platform. If you're doing that you could well be helping them to co-regulate their emotions, if they're a repeat customer for that sort of thing, even if they arent, that's at best tedious and at worst will burn you out. I've read good books suggesting that people should be more cognizant of that when choosing friends and partners, that's more significant than random connects online but it probably still matters.
    "Detox" is a nice way of putting it. Of course, no one wants to be the constant dumping ground for someone, and negativity can be contagious. It's definitely a matter of knowing where to draw the line, and I think it's difficult to set any rules regarding the line, which is why noting patterns on a case-by-case basis seems a good approach. I just don't like to be dismissive of people, as if I know everything - I think the tough love approach is much more common than enabling actually. I'm not a fan of either.

    However, as someone who draws broken people seeking "free therapy", the line is something I've become very aware of and I walk into that territory more carefully now. Not that I get involved emotionally myself (beyond "pity" that keeps me listening, I can be strangely detached when empathizing), but it is draining nonetheless.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think some people have natural resistance to getting dragged into another person's crap. They can provide a decent firebreak. Other people are too sensitive just because of their nature, and they need to stay away from such people or they feel worn down and poisoned.

    In any case, no one is impenetrable, and even the normally stolid people need to get away from being mired in other people's crap, for at least a while.... to avoid (1) getting worn down OR (2) getting numb as a different sort of protective measure.

    I'm not sure what topics like trolling and someone's personal animosity resulting in stalking has to do with this thread... but whatever.
    I think you're right, I think type has a lot to do with that too but I do think it would get to anyone eventually.

    I mentioned those things because I was trying to give an alternative point of view Jenn, we could all say "yeah, damn masochists, dont you just hate 'em", there's not a lot of point and it'd make for a short lived thread dont you think? So I thought I'd interject with an example where there wasnt consensus on who was victim and who wasnt and how that labelling then effected things, for the sake of conversation you know.

    Shouldnt have bothered.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    "Detox" is a nice way of putting it. Of course, no one wants to be the constant dumping ground for someone, and negativity can be contagious. It's definitely a matter of knowing where to draw the line, and I think it's difficult to set any rules regarding the line, which is why noting patterns on a case-by-case basis seems a good approach. I just don't like to be dismissive of people, as if I know everything - I think the tough love approach is much more common than enabling actually. I'm not a fan of either.

    However, as someone who draws broken people seeking "free therapy", the line is something I've become very aware of and I walk into that territory more carefully now. Not that I get involved emotionally myself (beyond "pity" that keeps me listening, I can be strangely detached when empathizing), but it is draining nonetheless.
    I hear you on the second part, in fact the "free therapy" part describes my last two romantic involvements bar one, I had a supervisor at work tell me once that I had pretty developed knowledge and skills as one of these "fire breaks", handy being a social worker, but they said to be wary because they could see how people who really should have known better where defering to me "using" me that way too. It was good advice but I was suspiscious because of the source.

    Do you think this tough love approach is more common online than in person? Or are there more enablers online than in person? Do you think that perhaps people with a need to detox or people with an inclination to give them a hearing are more likely to congregate online than in person? I've seen patterns, though while it could prove helpful to some it can be the exact opposite, all the news headline about online bullying, people driven to suicide and the like are evidence enough.

  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I mentioned those things because I was trying to give an alternative point of view Jenn, we could all say "yeah, damn masochists, dont you just hate 'em", there's not a lot of point and it'd make for a short lived thread dont you think? So I thought I'd interject with an example where there wasnt consensus on who was victim and who wasnt and how that labelling then effected things, for the sake of conversation you know.
    Honestly, lark, I don't even understand why either would be considered a victim. You guys had animosity and personal antagonism in your relationship, it's just a fight. I just really didn't understand how the word "victim" came into play, especially in the sense of the OP here, it seemed weird to me. But whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by orangeappled
    I just don't like to be dismissive of people, as if I know everything - I think the tough love approach is much more common than enabling actually.
    It's hard to know when someone is feeding you a line and when they actually need help, sometimes. So I don't like to be dismissive either until I get a feel for what is going on. If someone really needs help, I want to be open to helping them and not automatically shut them out.

    It seems at some point some breaker gets flipped and we realize things aren't how they were portrayed, and then you have to extract yourself somehow (or close off the "free therapy" sessions).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, lark, I don't even understand why either would be considered a victim. You guys had animosity and personal antagonism in your relationship, it's just a fight. I just really didn't understand how the word "victim" came into play, especially in the sense of the OP here, it seemed weird to me. But whatever.
    The OP posted a thread about people getting tired of people playing the victim Jenn, I gave an instance of when I was victimised, when I complained to "the gallery" in the hope that since my own requests, threats, pretty much anything had had little effect on the guy victimising me that theirs maybe would I got a response of "stop playing the victim" from one person that shut everyone up.

    Why do I mention it? I thought it was relevent, the topic was people posing as the victim, I thought I'd add a twist to the tale. I dont know if that makes it appear any the less weird. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, I'm sure if you thought that then you wherent alone in doing so.

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