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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    ...
    Do you believe those traits are changable? This individual has tried to change for a short lifetime.
    ...
    All traits are adjustable if not removable. Every person can learn, grow, heal, and change.

    What is your friend's type, do you think?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    All traits are adjustable if not removable. Every person can learn, grow, heal, and change.

    What is your friend's type, do you think?
    Hard to tell. I believe this individual is an INTP.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #23
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    I don't really understand what the question/problem is.

    A: What is the person currently doing? It sounds like this person thinks he/she is a lazy and "bad" individual.

    B: What does the person want to do? This is unclear. But it is rather pessimistic and useless if this person has never made any attempts at this goal. Being a "good" person? Problems with a goal like this are that there are no clear benchmarks or pathways to achievement.

    C: What course of action does the person take to reach the goal? For example, one day.... cutting out packaged fried foods (if the goal is healthier eating). Another day trying to cook for oneself.

    Honestly, if this person is *so* acting in character and yet quite unhappy with his/her "true" traits, he/she is either a) acting against true traits (wanting to be "good") or b) has a unrealistic view of him/herself.

  4. #24
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Hard to tell. I believe this individual is an INTP.
    Naomi Quenk says equilibrium is returned by this person engaging their auxiliary Sensing behavior. She suggests light problem solving. Not being questioned about their feelings. Being given lots of space.

  5. #25
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Laziness and arrogance are flaws. Sure, in themselves they may not make you a 'bad person' or 'wrong' and its the imperfections that make people unique and beautiful, etc. etc. etc. but let's not all jump on kool-aid squirting wagon or whatever other mixed and mangled analogy applies.

    Everyone has moments of laziness and it's one thing to be lazy in general, but if it becomes debilitating that is a problem. From the OP's description it sounds like this person has reached an impasse and is at a point of frustration and a bit of hopelessness. For this person specifically, they are 'wrong' and laziness is one of those points.

    When I hear 'laziness' what I'm picking up from the OP is an ability or unwillingness to do what you want to do in your life - unhappy in job, ambitious goal to make impact on the world.

    What looks like laziness externally may not only be a lot of stuff going on internally, but a lot of fear and second guessing and self-doubt. Those things keep you from trying and if you don't even try you've already failed. Aim low. Very, very low. Or just keep chugging along on a path that doesn't challenge you the way you want. Or perhaps you have very low expectations of yourself because for whatever reason you don't think you're capable or deserving of success.

    As for arrogance, if it's expressed in a bombastic or cutting manner I'm going to bet part of that is arrogance is masking or amplifying feelings of inadequacy and frustration. They may very well truly feel they are better than other people, their coworkers, too good for their job, etc. But why the need to spend energy telgraphing that to everyone around them unless they are very unhappy and want to share the wealth.

    Or maybe they are just really really proud of their accomplishments and sure of their abilities. Arrogance can be blinding and can color your perceptions of reality and also make you feel disconnected from people around you.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'arrogance' but that's just some kinds of arrogance.

    If this person overthinks, they may be beating themselves up for being arrogant, when no one else thinks so. Some people are actually very humble and/or self-analyzing, so any bit of patting oneself on the back is seen as pride or arrogance.

    Do you think your friend is lazy and arrogant?

    I think folks have given very good advice so far. I will say that expressing belief in someone goes a long way.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Laziness and arrogance are flaws. Sure, in themselves they may not make you a 'bad person' or 'wrong' and its the imperfections that make people unique and beautiful, etc. etc. etc. but let's not all jump on kool-aid squirting wagon or whatever other mixed and mangled analogy applies.

    Everyone has moments of laziness and it's one thing to be lazy in general, but if it becomes debilitating that is a problem. From the OP's description it sounds like this person has reached an impasse and is at a point of frustration and a bit of hopelessness. For this person specifically, they are 'wrong' and laziness is one of those points.

    When I hear 'laziness' what I'm picking up from the OP is an ability or unwillingness to do what you want to do in your life - unhappy in job, ambitious goal to make impact on the world.

    What looks like laziness externally may not only be a lot of stuff going on internally, but a lot of fear and second guessing and self-doubt. Those things keep you from trying and if you don't even try you've already failed. Aim low. Very, very low. Or just keep chugging along on a path that doesn't challenge you the way you want. Or perhaps you have very low expectations of yourself because for whatever reason you don't think you're capable or deserving of success.

    As for arrogance, if it's expressed in a bombastic or cutting manner I'm going to bet part of that is arrogance is masking or amplifying feelings of inadequacy and frustration. They may very well truly feel they are better than other people, their coworkers, too good for their job, etc. But why the need to spend energy telgraphing that to everyone around them unless they are very unhappy and want to share the wealth.

    Or maybe they are just really really proud of their accomplishments and sure of their abilities. Arrogance can be blinding and can color your perceptions of reality and also make you feel disconnected from people around you.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'arrogance' but that's just some kinds of arrogance.

    If this person overthinks, they may be beating themselves up for being arrogant, when no one else thinks so. Some people are actually very humble and/or self-analyzing, so any bit of patting oneself on the back is seen as pride or arrogance.

    Do you think your friend is lazy and arrogant?

    I think folks have given very good advice so far. I will say that expressing belief in someone goes a long way.

    Thanks for your insights CzeCze. I am not sure what to advise. I will stick with simple acceptance for now. This person is quite capable, even if not always known to be so.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #27
    Rubber Nipple Salesperson ladypinkington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What if a people's inherent nature made them bad people?

    Say they have moral sensibilities that are quite different from the norm.
    Suppose they are lazy, arrogant, and don't want to physically DO anything.

    Suppose going against their nature makes them feel frustrated.

    What would you advise such people to do?
    I'd say get a job Hippie!

    LOL

    I think I would try to help the person figure out what they have a passion and talent for, they may be lazy because they don't have a direction. Boot camp is always good. I would also just throw them out of a helicopter but safely,lol, into a very poor third world country and have them have to be a part of helping a community there and then in order to survive because of the nature of living off the land and not having all conveniences- they would naturally have to do a lot of work and I think would be humbled by the situation.

    Wow, I just realised the question was what would you ADVISE them to do- I just took over completely this hypothetical person's life and took away all free will,lol.

    Woops,lol. This is an interesting question I'll give a free will answer later,lol.
    Me and hubby made an RPG Nutrition Game
    Play and Vote July 14th to Aug 14th
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Do you think your friend is lazy and arrogant?
    Sometimes. But no lazier or more arrogant than me.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    I don't really understand what the question/problem is.

    A: What is the person currently doing? It sounds like this person thinks he/she is a lazy and "bad" individual.
    Has job (a good one by objective standards) regularly gets good to excelent performance reviews. But you nailed the self-perception thing on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    B: What does the person want to do? This is unclear. But it is rather pessimistic and useless if this person has never made any attempts at this goal. Being a "good" person? Problems with a goal like this are that there are no clear benchmarks or pathways to achievement.
    Not sure to the individual either. The current job/career (R&D at my company, same as me) was initially chosen with great care. This individual has tried for a life-time to become less lazy and arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    C: What course of action does the person take to reach the goal? For example, one day.... cutting out packaged fried foods (if the goal is healthier eating). Another day trying to cook for oneself.
    Not sure about health. Could be OK, probably should exercise more like most corporate wage slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    Honestly, if this person is *so* acting in character and yet quite unhappy with his/her "true" traits, he/she is either a) acting against true traits (wanting to be "good") or b) has a unrealistic view of him/herself.
    I believe it to be b), but it is hard to argue what the good traits are.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    ...
    This individual has tried for a life-time to become less lazy and arrogant.
    ...
    Your co-worker sounds like just the type of person who would benefit from understanding the MBTI dichotomies, and from understanding that he's not bad, just different. He could learn what his strengths are, and learn to minimize his weaknesses by maximizing his strengths. He could at least learn to stop being his own worst enemy.

    If he's just a beginner in the subject, I highly recommend Do What You Are by Barron and Tieger. The profiles are framed in a positive way, and even the "possible blind spots" are listed with gentleness, so that a person doesn't feel condemned. Not only that, but they offer the list of 10 items that provide "career satisfaction" for each individual type.

    He could gain some insight into why he's feeling the way he is, and hopefully gain some self-acceptance, as well.

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