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  1. #101
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Accusing people of trolling you simply because they take issue with your post is not acceptable. If you don't know that how your cognitive processes manifest will differ from other people, then you should probably take the time to learn. To claim, "we can't stop" is not what Ne is, as a cognitive process.
    You can stop any behavior you want. It's called free will.
    Well I guess since your post had so little substance to it, I assumed its only intent was to get a reaction out of me. (read: troll)

    I'm sorry that I accused you of trolling, but you often come into these threads and make extreme, hyperbolic assumptions and twist the original meaning of ones' posts in attempts to make them look foolish, so that's what I thought your intention was here. Since your intention apparently was not ill and trollish, then I'm left only to assume that you sincerely do not understand the implications of my earlier post that started all of this.

    If you want to have a civil conversation about it, we can, and I'll try to elaborate a bit:

    Of course we can stop (my use of the phrase "can't stop" was not to be taken literally), and of course we have free will (way to state the obvious). It is, however, as Peguy has noticed and I elaborated on, a characteristic of those whom we label Ne-ers to take on these negative qualities that I outlined a bit. It is thus harder, for those to whom we assign the Ne label, to break out of this cycle. It's not impossible, but it takes more effort than a non Ne-er to overcome these negative traits, since these negative traits are definitionally related to Ne.

    This is true of all the functions and all the flaws that we associate with these functions. It takes balance with other functions and/or breaking free of our own trodden and worn cognitive pathways to overcome the flaws that we take on as a result of our natural and practiced cognition. (I'm sure that you have/had certain flaws as a result of your cognition being driven primarily by Te, and you have hopefully learned and/or are learning to overcome these flaws by complimenting Te with other functions.)

    That's one of the central aims of typology: it's a way for us to assign labels to certain categories of cognition and use the ease of communication that is granted by these labels to better understand ourselves (functions are not scapegoats; they are communication devices). We can use typological labels to describe/analyze our weaknesses and strengths as well as practice new perspectives to obtain cognitive balance, finding new ways to build on our strengths and overcome our weaknesses.

    The fact that you seem to think that I and others around here use functions as scapegoats for our behavior is quite baffling to me. Newton said that mass on Earth falls toward the ground as a result of a term he coined gravity. He was not *blaming* this behavior of mass on gravity (again, that would be quite silly, considering that gravity and falling objects are, by definition, causally related). He was coming up with a term to *describe* and to *analyze* this behavior. When I say "I do/think/believe X because of Y function", I am not blaming X on Y. I am using a formerly established label, Y, to describe my behavior/beliefs/cognition, X, so I can better categorize, analyze, and understand myself and my actions.

  2. #102
    Ginkgo
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    I think it could be argued that we don't have free will, seeing as our personalities are a manifestations of chemical processes that occur in our brains, and our brains are material just like the rest of the universe, which operates under natural law which can't be interfered with. If we do have free will, are we intervening upon natural law?

  3. #103
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Well I guess since your post had so little substance to it, I assumed its only intent was to get a reaction out of me.
    Some people don't have to type 473 sentences, to have substance.
    I made my point.

    so that's what I thought your intention was here. Since your intention apparently was not ill and trollish, then I'm left only to assume that you sincerely do not understand the implications of my earlier post that started all of this.
    Why don't you tell people what's good about Ne? Otherwise, people will think it's just rubbish if all you do is point out the negatives of Ne.

    It is, however, as Peguy has noticed and I elaborated on, a characteristic of those whom we label Ne-ers to take on these negative qualities that I outlined a bit.
    *sigh* Negative qualities, again.

    It is thus harder, for those to whom we assign the Ne label, to break out of this cycle. It's not impossible, but it takes more effort than a non Ne-er to overcome these negative traits, since these negative traits are definitionally related to Ne.
    Tesla, there isn't one single book on the functions that explains Ne as if the person is addicted to a controlled substance, and has no self-control.
    That's what you make Ne sound like.

    This is true of all the functions and all the flaws that we associate with these functions. It takes balance with other functions and/or breaking free of our own trodden and worn cognitive pathways to overcome the flaws that we take on as a result of our natural and practiced cognition.
    In this paragraph it's now all about "flaws." "Trodden and worn pathways."
    Are we seeing the pattern of negativity here?

    We can use typological labels to describe/analyze our weaknesses and strengths and thus practice new perspectives to obtain cognitive balance, finding new ways to build on our strengths and overcome our weaknesses.
    In theory, that's fine, but if you go back and read every thing you wrote, your overall tone that permeates your entire post is purely negative.
    It sounds like the sky is falling or the world is coming to an end.

    Look, if you have such a horrible opinion of Ne, I will be happy to give you a list of books to read that show the great potential of not only Ne, but all the functions.
    I'm off to bed soon, so we can pick this up tomorrow.

  4. #104
    Ginkgo
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    Hmm... I think we can foster growth in our preferred functions, while still acknowledging others functions as uniquely their own. I think it was Keirsey who said:

    "Insist that your child or spouse be like you, and at best you'll see his or her struggles to comply, but beware of building resentment. Our attempts to reshape others may produce change, but the change is distortion rather than transformation".

    I think that it is quite possible to distort yourself by trying to hamper your preferred functions in favor of others. After all, resisting your preferred tendencies is, more or less, attempting to delve into your shadow.

  5. #105
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Some people don't have to type 473 sentences, to have substance.
    I made my point.



    Why don't you tell people what's good about Ne? Otherwise, people will think it's just rubbish if all you do is point out the negatives of Ne.



    *sigh* Negative qualities, again.



    Tesla, there isn't one single book on the functions that explains Ne as if the person is addicted to a controlled substance, and has no self-control.
    That's what you make Ne sound like.



    In this paragraph it's now all about "flaws." "Trodden and worn pathways."
    Are we seeing the pattern of negativity here?



    In theory, that's fine, but if you go back and read every thing you wrote, your overall tone that permeates your entire post is purely negative.
    It sounds like the sky is falling or the world is coming to an end.

    Look, if you have such a horrible opinion of Ne, I will be happy to give you a list of books to read that show the great potential of not only Ne, but all the functions.
    I'm off to bed soon, so we can pick this up tomorrow.
    Ok, this whole post is absurdly ridiculous Jag.

    I pointed out one negative quality that Ne causes in Ne-ers: Ne often manifests as the inability to use past experience as a sound basis for judgment of new experiences, and this can cause Ne-ers to be annoyingly unrealistic at times. I pointed this out as a small elaboration on Peguy's anecdote about how he has observed Ne to be somewhat insatiable in the connections it makes to a some times unhealthy/annoying degree.

    I really have no idea how/why you are reading into my post in such a way that causes you to see it as one big negative ramble about the sky falling down and the apocalypse coming. I wasn't trying to make Ne seem hopelessly useless and otherwise shitty. I was just pointing out one negative quality of it as it related to the context of another post in this thread.

    My post in no way implied that I don't see good qualities in Ne. I obviously value and respect the qualities that Ne instills in people, as I am a proud Ne-dom, and I rather like myself as an ENTP. However, I am not so blinded by my bias towards the positive qualities of Ne that I can't also see the negative qualities that it causes in myself and other Ne-ers.

    Honestly, it will be getting rather off-topic (though we already are, so w/e), but since you asked, I can go on and on about the good qualities of Ne. It's the essence of my creativity. It allows me to see connections between several unrelated contexts and add a creative twist to otherwise mundane things. It instills in me a curiosity for knowledge and novel experiences, and motivates me to dream big and go after my big dreams. It causes me to ask questions and seek out new answers. It helps give me the desire to persevere in the face of ongoing failure, and it allows me to break free of what "everyone else" thinks/believes. With Ne, I can see beyond what the reality of the moment may be telling me and find a new meaning. The world is full of potential through my Ne lens, and because of it, I feel unstoppable.

    So I do understand the good that comes with Ne, probably better than you do, being an Ne-er myself. However, it would be rather silly of me to always go around flaunting how wonderful my own functions are while never touching upon the flaws that they can cause as well. Do you seriously believe that simply because I made one post about one negative quality of Ne that I have an overall negative view towards it? :rolli:

    And as one last side note, to this:
    Tesla, there isn't one single book on the functions that explains Ne as if the person is addicted to a controlled substance, and has no self-control.
    That's what you make Ne sound like.
    Ne actually does some times manifest itself as a lack of self-control; it's an addiction to novelty. Ne-ers some times become so curious to find new meanings and new connections, that they can't stop exploring a given a situation, even when they know they should. It's pretty clear that this can cause negative consequences in some scenarios. And obviously we have "free will" enough to eventually stop, but Ne certainly does cause Ne-ers to be less disciplined than they probably ought to be.

  6. #106
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Tesla, there isn't one single book on the functions that explains Ne as if the person is addicted to a controlled substance, and has no self-control. That's what you make Ne sound like.
    I'm addicted to Ne!
    MORE. MORE!

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Using your example of purchasing Oscar Meyer fun snack; I guess a Ne-dom could ask me if I wanted to purchase some, and I would say no. To which the Ne-dom asks me why, and I give a rough outline why I don't want it. Then the Ne-dom persistently keeps trying to convince me to buy the Oscar Meyer fun snack, coming up with different justifications, a new one everytime I say no and give some answer to each reason. From my point of view, it's more than clear that I don't want to buy the Oscar Meyer snake, and having to constantly to answer various different reasons why I don't want to seems rather unnecessary not to mention really really really really annoying; and has the effect of me not wanting to buy the Oscar Meyer fun snack even more(which is the opposite effect the Ne-dom is striving for).

    In the time we spent talking about why I don't want to buy the Oscar Meyer fun snack, we could've been looking at other stuff to buy. But no, we're still discussing the Oscar Meyer fun snack, along with other stuff I'm not interested in either. Example:"Oscar Meyer fun snack tastes good with X,Y,Z." I don't care about XYZ, or even if I do I don't see how that changes the fact I still don't want the Oscar Meyer fun snack - even with XYZ!

    Do you get what I'm trying to say?
    I do not like
    that Sam-I-am!
    Do you like green eggs and ham?
    I do not like them,
    Sam-I-am.
    I do not like
    green eggs and ham.

    Would you like them
    here or there?

    I would not like them
    here or there.
    I would not like them
    anywhere.
    I do not like
    green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them,
    Sam-I-am.

    Would you like them
    in a house?
    Would you like them
    with a mouse?

    I do not like them
    in a house.
    I do not like them
    with a mouse.
    I do not like them
    here or there.
    I do not like them
    anywhere.
    I do not like green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

    Would you eat them
    in a box?
    Would you eat them
    with a fox?

    Not in a box.
    Not with a fox.
    Not in a house.
    Not with a mouse.
    I would not eat them here or there.
    I would not eat them anywhere.
    I would not eat green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

    Would you? Could you?
    In a car?
    Eat them! Eat them!
    Here they are.

    I would not,
    could not,
    in a car.

    You may like them.
    You will see.
    You may like them
    in a tree!

    I would not, could not in a tree.
    Not in a car! You let me be.

    I do not like them in a box.
    I do not like them with a fox.
    I do not like them in a house.
    I do not like them with a mouse.
    I do not like them here or there.
    I do not like them anywhere.
    I do not like green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

    A train! A train!
    A train! A train!
    Could you, would you,
    on a train?

    Not on a train! Not in a tree!
    Not in a car! Sam! Let me be!

    I would not, could not, in a box.
    I could not, would not, with a fox.
    I will not eat them with a mouse.
    I will not eat them in a house.
    I will not eat them here or there.
    I will not eat them anywhere.
    I do not eat green eggs and ham.
    I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

    Say!
    In the dark?
    Here in the dark!
    Would you, could you, in the dark?

    I would not, could not,
    in the dark.

    Would you, could you, in the rain?I would not, could not,
    in the rain.
    Not in the dark. Not on a train.
    Not in a car. Not in a tree.
    I do not like them, Sam, you see.
    Not in a house. Not in a box.
    Not with a mouse. Not with a fox.
    I will not eat them here or there.
    I do not like them anywhere!You do not like
    green eggs and ham?I do not
    like them,
    Sam-I-am.Could you, would you,
    with a goat?

    I would not,
    could not,
    with a goat!

    Would you, could you,
    on a boat?

    I could not, would not, on a boat.
    I will not, will not, with a goat.
    I will not eat them in the rain.
    I will not eat them on a train.
    Not in the dark! Not in a tree!
    Not in a car! You let me be!
    I do not like them in a box.
    I do not like them with a fox.
    I will not eat them in a house.
    I do not like them with a mouse.
    I do not like them here or there.
    I do not like them ANYWHERE!

    I do not like
    green eggs
    and ham!I do not like them,
    Sam-I-am.You do not like them.
    So you say.
    Try them! Try them!
    And you may.
    Try them and you may, I say.Sam!
    If you will let me be,
    I will try them.
    You will see.Say!
    I like green eggs and ham!
    I do! I like them, Sam-I-am!
    And I would eat them in a boat.
    And I would eat them with a goat…

    And I will eat them in the rain.
    And in the dark. And on a train.
    And in a car. And in a tree.
    They are so good, so good, you see!

    So I will eat them in a box.
    And I will eat them with a fox.
    And I will eat them in a house.
    And I will eat them with a mouse.
    And I will eat them here and there.
    Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!

    I do so like
    green eggs and ham!
    Thank you!
    Thank you,
    Sam-I-am!

    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #108
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    ^Funny, I've never felt like I was one of the majority types here. Sure, I'm Ne-aux, but seriously (for interest sakes) how many infp/intp (and the other types, LOL) have gotten past 500 posts. Personally I think that would be a more accurate analysis, combined with who posted in the last three months. There's an awful lot of transient posters too.
    Reeeeally? I mean, I believe you feel this way, but I've always been very, very conscious of the INFP presence here, as possibly THE strongest presence here - perhaps even greater than the INTP presence. And this has been true since a few months after the forum started (at first it was mostly INTPs, but the INFPs came in hordes pretty quickly) Pretty much every thread has several INFP perspectives.

    I haven't looked at the numbers, but the higher posters in the past have been mostly INTP with a few INFPs/ENxPs and whatever thrown in for good measure.

    And the extroverts here are almost all ENxP, with a mere sprinkling of Fe, Te and Se (ExxJ and ESxp). Pretty much all the drama here has been Ne drama, not that any kind of drama is particularly better than any other kind.

    I don't find the forum unpleasantly Ne dominated, but there are very noticeably fewer Ni users, let alone Se and lesser still, Si. Would be nice to get a more balanced perspective, admittedly. But there are quite a lot more Se users here now, compared to the early forum days.
    -end of thread-

  9. #109
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    when I think of an Se user following impulses, I think of an Se user registering at TypoC.

  10. #110
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    There's a lot of Ne floating around, yeah, but frankly I think this site is more Fi-overloaded than anything; every other poster seems to be an NFP (whereas only around 17% of members are actually Ne-dominant rather than Ne-auxiliary).
    This, too, especially counting the isfps. But there are enough Ti types around to balance things, whereas not that many non-Ne users.
    -end of thread-

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