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  1. #71
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    This is actually an important issue because one of those circular reasoning problems is that in traditionally male professions, women encounter a lot of prejudice, and so it is actually harder at first. A male counterpart facing the same set of stressers would also struggle. This is how society conditions its members. It creates self-fulfilling prophecies. If the society looks down on women being in a profession it will collectively oppress the woman out of that profession. The toughest and brightest will pioneer and break down those initial barriers making it possible for more varied personalities of women to enter the same profession.

    That a woman can succeed in a male-dominated profession often means objectively more about her skill and toughness than for a male counterpart who achieves the exact same thing with the collective support of that same profession. Circular reasoning for the purpose of social conditioning is a significant problem. It takes insight and the ability to see to the core of the dynamics to see it for what it is.
    Agreed.
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  2. #72
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Oh yes, how awful that some women chose to be business executives just to prove to themselves and the menfolk that they could! Especially when we know that their nature was more suited to something less "masculine," where they would have been happier.
    I'm just paraphrasing what Susan Pinker illuminates in her book. Since the second wave of feminism, women are saying that, for the most part, they do not feel oppressed, downtrodden, or discriminated against in the workplace. Which is good. What they ARE saying is that so many people in their lives, starting with their immediate family, said to them, "You're so good at math, you should pursue it as a career." So they did. Perhaps in college, they questioned their choice, but once you start amassing education and educational expenses, especially at the PhD level, it is hard to switch if you find, say, that being a teacher is better match for your personality type. Or the fact that a smart woman might not live up to her full fruition (according to society or family, etc) by simply staying home and rearing her children.

    I think it should not be glossed over or underestimated, that there is a serious underlying pressure placed on smart women to prove themselves academically and professionally. To not realize this would represent a narrow focus.

    Of course, you are a T, so you might not identify with this as much. :workout:

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    This is actually an important issue because one of those circular reasoning problems is that in traditionally male professions, women encounter a lot of prejudice, and so it is actually harder at first. A male counterpart facing the same set of stressers would also struggle. This is how society conditions its members. It creates self-fulfilling prophecies. If the society looks down on women being in a profession it will collectively oppress the woman out of that profession. The toughest and brightest will pioneer and break down those initial barriers making it possible for more varied personalities of women to enter the same profession.

    That a woman can succeed in a male-dominated profession often means objectively more about her skill and toughness than for a male counterpart who achieves the exact same thing with the collective support of that same profession. Circular reasoning for the purpose of social conditioning is a significant problem. It takes insight and the ability to see to the core of the dynamics to see it for what it is.
    Can you cite recent studies that say this, or quote some authors on the subject? From what I've read and seen, is that women are being promoted and encouraged in many capacities, and that the historical context of discrimination of women in the workplace is largely becoming a thing of the past.

    The fact is, that women are choosing to opt out of high intensity 60 hour a week jobs for many reasons, not the least of which is to be with their families, or because that's just not how they want to spend their time or life, not because of discriminatory practices in the work setting.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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  3. #73
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    What they ARE saying is that so many people in their lives, starting with their immediate family, said to them, "You're so good at math, you should pursue it as a career." So they did. Perhaps in college, they questioned their choice, but once you start amassing education and educational expenses, especially at the PhD level, it is hard to switch if you find, say, that being a teacher is better match for your personality type.
    I don't personally see the problem with encouraging smart young women to pursue various careers. And it seems highly unlikely, in any case, that someone would end up with a PhD that they didn't want, all "because daddy made me, waaaah."

    At the end of the day, all this means is that women now have the same problem as men have always had, "that daddy wanted me to carry on the family legacy" or "daddy wanted me to achieve like he did." And this is not a gender problem, but rather a problem with capitalism. To say that this is more of a problem for women than it is for men is to essentialize women as, in general, less suitable for such careers than men.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think it should not be glossed over or underestimated, that there is a serious underlying pressure placed on smart women to prove themselves academically and professionally. To not realize this would represent a seriously narrow focus.
    Again, I think this "pressure" problem has less to do with gender than it does with capitalism. But in a system where financial (and academic) achievement is the sought-after prize, I don't see why it's any MORE of a problem for women than it is for men.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Of course, you are a T, so you might not identify with this as much. :workout:
    I don't identify with it at all, so maybe you're right.
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  4. #74
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't personally see the problem with encouraging smart young women to pursue various careers. And it seems highly unlikely, in any case, that someone would end up with a PhD that they didn't want, all "because daddy made me, waaaah."

    At the end of the day, all this means is that women now have the same problem as men have always had, "that daddy wanted me to carry on the family legacy" or "daddy wanted me to achieve like he did." And this is not a gender problem, but rather a problem with capitalism. To say that this is more of a problem for women than it is for men is to essentialize women as, in general, less suitable for such careers than men.
    Well, it can be a gender problem if you consider that the main differences between women and men is in regards to empathy and assertiveness. Empathy to others, including family and friends, will be very related to why and how women find satisfaction in their work. Combined with a general (statistical) lack of assertiveness, executive type positions would be even more anathema for them than men. But, yes, getting stuck in a career that doesn't fit you could be a problem for either gender, agreed. Women are less likely to put up with it though.


    Again, I think this "pressure" problem has less to do with gender than it does with capitalism. But in a system where financial (and academic) achievement is the sought-after prize, I don't see why it's any MORE of a problem for women than it is for men.
    Capitalism how so? I do think 'progess' has made most people work in ways we are not really evolved for, applying an evolutionary philosophical bent to it, which I am inclined to do. Money ruling and defining everything we are is bound to skew everything, which muddies the waters. It's hard to see just what the culprit is. I also believe globalization and centralization are evil as well, and take us further away from who we are meant to be as a people and culture. But in the end, women and men are different, and to try to avoid that obvious truth, does no one any good.



    I don't identify with it at all, so maybe you're right.
    You're lucky. If you ever have kids, (or if you have them) I'd be curious to know how that affects your outlook.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  5. #75
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Well, it can be a gender problem if you consider that the main differences between women and men is in regards to empathy and assertiveness. Empathy to others, including family and friends, will be very related to why and how women find satisfaction in their work. Combined with a general (statistical) lack of assertiveness, executive type positions would be even more anathema for them than men. But, yes, getting stuck in a career that doesn't fit you could be a problem for either gender, agreed. Women are less likely to put up with it though.
    Well, the bolded is what I consider to be gender essentialism. I'm distrustful of any material that tries to tell me about the nature of the genders and how they differ from one another.

    And women are probably less likely to "put up with it" because they, unlike men, have more room to choose to be Hausfrauen, or the lesser earning partner in a marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Capitalism how so? I do think 'progess' has made most people work in ways we are not really evolved for, applying an evolutionary philosophical bent to it, which I am inclined to do. Money ruling and defining everything we are is bound to skew everything, which muddies the waters. It's hard to see just what the culprit is. I also believe globalization and centralization are evil as well, and take us further away from who we are meant to be as a people and culture. But in the end, women and men are different, and to try to avoid that obvious truth, does no one any good.
    Capitalism is responsible for the state of our present social and economic organization (including globalization.) Thus, any pressure to "achieve" that is applied by families and schools to individuals is as a result of the system's need to reproduce itself.

    I don't know what you mean when you say "who we are meant to be as a people and culture." I don't think we're "meant to be" anything.

    As to the bolded, it's one thing to say that men and women are different, but it's another thing entirely to say exactly how and what the implications are. I think, just by observing men and women on the street, any idiot could come to the conclusion that men and women are different from one another. The trickier part is the "how" and "so what?," and there have been so many speculations on these two points over the history of civilization that I'm not inclined to believe any of it without serious, serious scholarly investigation into the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    You're lucky. If you ever have kids, (or if you have them) I'd be curious to know how that affects your outlook.
    I don't really want kids, but if it happens, I'll get back to you .
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  6. #76
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Like how everything is so ordered and beautiful and runs smoothly or something?
    Well, only because you asked I will try to explain. Not quite, there is something about the combination of planning plus extensive thoughtfulness that really resonates in me. Those are the kinds of acts of love I like to do. Anticipating a loved ones stress and being able to create or be exactly what they need. But it could be the idyllic nature that is attracting me, too. I can't say for sure. I'm just being honest, not trying to sound like Donna Reed and I recognize that everyone wants and expresses love differently and it shouldn't be law of the land or anything.
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  7. #77
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    I'm an ok wife for my family I guess

    -Dinner: I am a pretty good cook (I think), and I do it often, but I never know when/if they are going to be home, so I never start until they are.
    -Preparation: Well, I always shower...
    -Gayness: Usually. Some days it's hard, though.
    -Clearing the clutter: ...sometimes.
    -Cleaning off surfaces: more often than the clutter, but not always
    -House temperature: they never agree on what it should be anyway
    -Children: There aren't any, but if they have guests with children, I usually try to play with them to minimize disruptions
    -Happiness, sincerity: I think I'm pretty good at this.
    -Listen: Always.
    -Events: Always.
    -Peace, order, tranquility: Sometimes it's hard, but usually.
    -Complaining: sometimes if I need an excuse for why I didn't do one of the above, but otherwise never.
    -Drink: Sometimes I have tea ready, but this is rare because they never want the same kind of tea.
    -Take off shoes, fluff pillow, etc.: That's a little TOO personal.
    -Don't question them: it's hard sometimes but I think I have got the hang of it.
    -Always know your place: ~.~
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  8. #78
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Well, only because you asked I will try to explain. Not quite, there is something about the combination of planning plus extensive thoughtfulness that really resonates in me. Those are the kinds of acts of love I like to do. Anticipating a loved ones stress and being able to create or be exactly what they need. But it could be the idyllic nature that is attracting me, too. I can't say for sure. I'm just being honest, not trying to sound like Donna Reed and I recognize that everyone wants and expresses love differently and it shouldn't be law of the land or anything.
    Don't worry... I didn't interpret it that way. I am just curious what exactly resonated with you about it.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I'd rather not be prescribed how to do stuff, not by this thing nor by the new Cosmo issue or feminist pamphlets.

    I find it intriguing, though, the article doesn't say what place exactly the wife should know to keep.

  10. #80
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    None of that stuff is actually necessary other than the 'Don't complain about your problems'.

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