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  1. #61
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    A lot of those things are fairly "normal", come naturally for many people when they have feelings of love for their spouse, and could be beneficial for the family unit. I do think that family life runs more smoothly when roles are clearly defined. Nonetheless, I'd make a terrible wife using those criteria.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  2. #62
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I especially like the

    take his shoes off and
    don't care if he stays out all night

    yeah. Otherwise, I do about half of these.



    Face it, People. Women ARE different than men which is what this article touches on. Women are more empathetic and men are more assertive (F/T), it's proven. There is a lot of truth in it (women being servile to men, and men being revered) but, of course, it goes too far. I think of it not as a hierarchy but as a ying/yang deal. However, men of our century have been largely raised with the notion that they are superior, which does no one any good.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  3. #63
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Face it, People. Women ARE different than men which is what this article touches on. Women are more empathetic and men are more assertive (F/T), it's proven. There is a lot of truth in it (women being servile to men, and men being revered) but, of course, it goes too far. I think of it not as a hierarchy but as a ying/yang deal. However, men of our century have been largely raised with the notion that they are superior, which does no one any good.
    It is/was socially conditioned which is a little different from proven which implies a natural state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    "Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him"

    Kinky!! *raises eyebrow*
    hahaha

    I've read that list and other documents about the status of women just a few decades ago. It's basically why I find it demoralizing when people criticize feminism. Defining people based on body parts is Neaderthal. Understanding those influences helps me understand the ways in which my mother and older generation females view the world, but it also leaves me holding on to my own determination to level the playing field. In every entry on that list there is a dismissal of the woman's mind and ideas, and basically describes how to be a good waitress/hostess/servant. Not being allowed to voice any complaint? Assuming your thoughts and ideas are not as important? Knowing your place? No.

    That life described there would be absolute torment for me in part because I have empathy. Men suffer when they treat women like that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #64
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    This is hilarious! I've got 7,5/18.

    1) I cook things he likes to eat. It's not ready when he's home, but that's a tradition and you shouldn't break traditions, especially not when your husband is an STJ. 0,5.
    2) No way. 0.
    3) I'm almost always interesting and interested. 1.
    4) No way. We clean together. 0.
    5) See 4. 0.
    6) I do my best to make him comfortable... as he does for me . 0,5.
    7) We don't have children yet... 0.
    8) Why shouldn't I be happy to see him?! 1.
    9) Well, 8 + E = ? 1.
    10) What? I've got the greatest idea ever right now!! 0. (maybe -1, lol!)
    11) No way. He has to explain things. 0.
    12) See 6. 1.
    13) I try not to. Anyways, my solutions are always much more interesting than the problems. 1.
    14) See 11. 0.
    15) 0,5.
    16) 0.
    17) I'm not allowed to ask questions?? 0.
    18) I know my place... unless you just measured my speed 1.

    To comment on the previous few posts:

    Men and women are different. This doesn't mean the one is better than the other. Still, just because of the fact that women bring the large egg and men just the tiny sperm, genetics makes us behave differently. (Read "The selfish gene" from R. Dawkins - it's very clearly written and very interesting.) Of course, this is a general thing - individual women can vary among the mean, as can individual men. Eg. men are generally stronger, but if you take a particular man and a particular woman, there is a (less than 0,5) chance the woman is stronger.
    But this is an observation and an observation is not a law. I've repeated this times and again in my statistics lessons. Statistics can't force you to behave like the mean. It's not forbidden for a woman to do theoretical physics (which is not a feminine choice). It's not forbidden, either, to choose a teacher's career over an academic one (which IS a feminine choice).

    I'm not a feminist, I'm not anti either... I have strong opinions on this which don't correspond to the one nor to the other.

    1) Quota are counterproductive. If you force an employer to take on 50% women, maybe he has to choose women who are not as suited for the job. Worse: even if he takes on the woman because she is competent, people still will think she got the job "because she's a woman."

    2) There are women who are good at 'men's jobs'. There are men who are good at 'women's jobs'. Pick the best candidate, employers.

    The problem is, of course, that employers would tend to discriminate against women. I honestly don't know of a good system to counteract this.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  5. #65
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It is/was socially conditioned which is a little different from proven which implies a natural state.
    What you are stating, if I'm hearing your correctly, is a currently common ideology called the Standard Social Science Model (SSSM) which says that
    aggressive behavior is the result of socialization (Buss, 1999). Essentially, it suggests males are rewarded for aggression while females are discouraged from it. As a result, males tend to be aggressive and females cooperative.
    and that women have been downtrodden and discriminated against which is still why they make less money and might choose a life or work involving more empathatic concerns.

    However, Susan Pinker of The Sexual Paradox says throughout her well-cited book that women and men are slightly different biologically, but with far-reaching ramifications, namely attributable to the qualities of empathy and assertiveness.

    Alan Feingold at Yale crunched results from 110 personality studies spanning 52 years, 7 countries, and various testing methods, using meta-analysis, and found that sex differences were common. Men, on average, were more assertive than women, no matter where and when they lived, how old they were, and how much education they had. Women were more likely to be anxious, trusting of others, gregarious, and "tender-minded," which Feindgold defined as nurturing. These two categories--assertiveness and tender-mindedness--cleanly divided the two sexes. The cross-cultural tendency for girls and women to be moved by someone else's emotions and needs--their tender-mindedness--is likely why females have been found to provide more help and support to other people almost everywhere this has been studied.

    Of course individuals vary, and group averages say little about any single, real person, but this genetic predisposition sets the limits for your behavior....
    and by and large according to many different studies women have more empathy and men are more assertive, simply by nature, not environment alone. This underlying trait in most women affects their work and life choices to a large degree. Women and men ARE different, but as Edward Hagen, evolutionary psychologist, says, "Nothing in evolutionary theory privileges males over females, however, nor does evolutionary theory prescribe social 'roles' for either sex." So, just because we are not interchangeable, does not mean that we are not equally worthy.

    I would go a step further and say this is a reflection of the F/T divide that all of us personality freaks understand that women are something like 70%F and the same for men being T. So, obviously T women and F men would not be as likely to fall into these categories, but we are talking trends, and statistical significance, not absolutes.

    I think feminism is great as far as bringing women equality in voting and education, etc., but it can also be detrimental when taken too far in proposing that women and men are interchangeable, because it can lead women down a path that might not be right for them out of wanting to prove something to themselves and to society at large, not to mention the huger problem of who, then, raises the children and all the fallout from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Men and women are different. This doesn't mean the one is better than the other. Still, just because of the fact that women bring the large egg and men just the tiny sperm, genetics makes us behave differently. (Read "The selfish gene" from R. Dawkins - it's very clearly written and very interesting.) Of course, this is a general thing - individual women can vary among the mean, as can individual men. Eg. men are generally stronger, but if you take a particular man and a particular woman, there is a (less than 0,5) chance the woman is stronger.
    But this is an observation and an observation is not a law. I've repeated this times and again in my statistics lessons. Statistics can't force you to behave like the mean. It's not forbidden for a woman to do theoretical physics (which is not a feminine choice). It's not forbidden, either, to choose a teacher's career over an academic one (which IS a feminine choice).

    I'm not a feminist, I'm not anti either... I have strong opinions on this which don't correspond to the one nor to the other.

    1) Quota are counterproductive. If you force an employer to take on 50% women, maybe he has to choose women who are not as suited for the job. Worse: even if he takes on the woman because she is competent, people still will think she got the job "because she's a woman."

    2) There are women who are good at 'men's jobs'. There are men who are good at 'women's jobs'. Pick the best candidate, employers.

    The problem is, of course, that employers would tend to discriminate against women. I honestly don't know of a good system to counteract this.
    I basically agree with all of this. And I've been wanting to read that book. Thanks for reminding me.

    Have you seen that uni's are largely female now and that many, to avoid greater than a 60% female/male ratio, are employing behind-the-scenes affirmative action to male applicants? Women are better, more serious students overall.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #66
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'd say, when I was with my boyfriend I was probably about a 10 out of 18.

    I'm a pretty tidy person, so I tend to be the one cleaning, and I'm an okay cook and careful about my diet (most of the time ) so I tend to cook whether it's for 1 or 10 people.

    As far as finances go, I get lost easily in things paperwork related, but I am good at managing money, shopping smart, and budgeting.

    What I have a hard time doing is the more maternal stuff that would make someone see me as "mom/wife" material. I express my love through hard work, and honesty and loyalty. Not so much through physical and emotional affection. If that makes any sense at all. To me, it's the same thing.
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  7. #67
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    and by and large according to many different studies women have more empathy and men are more assertive, simply by nature, not environment alone. This underlying trait in most women affects their work and life choices to a large degree. Women and men ARE different, but as Edward Hagen, evolutionary psychologist, says, "Nothing in evolutionary theory privileges males over females, however, nor does evolutionary theory prescribe social 'roles' for either sex." So, just because we are not interchangeable, does not mean that we are not equally worthy.

    I would go a step further and say this is a reflection of the F/T divide that all of us personality freaks understand that women are something like 70%F and the same for men being T. So, obviously T women and F men would not be as likely to fall into these categories, but we are talking trends, and statistical significance, not absolutes.

    I think feminism is great as far as bringing women equality in voting and education, etc., but it can also be detrimental when taken too far in proposing that women and men are interchangeable, because it can lead women down a path that might not be right for them out of wanting to prove something to themselves and to society at large, not to mention the huger problem of who, then, raises the children and all the fallout from that.
    It has been a help to population growth problems to get women educated and into careers so that fewer offspring are being produced.

    I think there are enough cases of women trying to prove to society that they are "a good wife" like the OP describes that I wouldn't worry too much about women in general getting lost trying to prove something to society by taking on "male" professions. There are a great many professions, including my own, that historically were proven to be only within the capabilities of the male mind, but those assumptions gradually evolve with more female contribution.

    It is worth asking the question of whether the way things have always been in some ways suggests the way things should be in the future. If women have always played a subordinate role in all countries throughout time, is that proof that it should continue? What does that mean? Does it mean it is ideal under certain conditions, but if those conditions change then what is ideal can also change? For example, when it was harder to produce offspring that survived into adulthood when human populations were lower, then distinction of gender roles might have been more important for survival. Now that overpopulation is a serious issue, having women focusing on traditional child-rearing roles and all the empathy that requires might not make as much sense as having them contribute in other ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Have you seen that uni's are largely female now and that many, to avoid greater than a 60% female/male ratio, are employing behind-the-scenes affirmative action to male applicants? Women are better, more serious students overall.
    This could be partly the result of new-found liberties. Women of our generations often had mothers and grandmothers who either didn't have the option of going through higher education, or for those who did, their careers were not developed. It means something for women that men can more easily take for granted at this particular juncture in time. I suspect it would level off in a couple of generations.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #68
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think feminism is great as far as bringing women equality in voting and education, etc., but it can also be detrimental when taken too far in proposing that women and men are interchangeable, because it can lead women down a path that might not be right for them out of wanting to prove something to themselves and to society at large, not to mention the huger problem of who, then, raises the children and all the fallout from that.
    Oh yes, how awful that some women chose to be business executives just to prove to themselves and the menfolk that they could! Especially when we know that their nature was more suited to something less "masculine," where they would have been happier.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #69
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I don't see any distinction at all between being a good wife/husband, and being a good person.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  10. #70
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Oh yes, how awful that some women chose to be business executives just to prove to themselves and the menfolk that they could! Especially when we know that their nature was more suited to something less "masculine," where they would have been happier.
    This is actually an important issue because one of those circular reasoning problems is that in traditionally male professions, women encounter a lot of prejudice, and so it is actually harder at first. A male counterpart facing the same set of stressers would also struggle. This is how society conditions its members. It creates self-fulfilling prophecies. If the society looks down on women being in a profession it will collectively oppress the woman out of that profession. The toughest and brightest will pioneer and break down those initial barriers making it possible for more varied personalities of women to enter the same profession.

    That a woman can succeed in a male-dominated profession often means objectively more about her skill and toughness than for a male counterpart who achieves the exact same thing with the collective support of that same profession. Circular reasoning for the purpose of social conditioning is a significant problem. It takes insight and the ability to see to the core of the dynamics to see it for what it is.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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