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  1. #91
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Not sure if I understand your claim correctly, but I sure hope that I don't because the idea that you seem to have in mind strikes me as implausible. Although I would agree that the modern culture of capitalism encourages people to 'achieve', I don't know if the resultant dilemma should be attributed solely to capitalism. Non-capitalistic societies have also been known to push people to 'achieve', though for different reasons. A capitalistic family is likely to encourage their children to attain this or that position of status to earn prosperity, yet a communist or a fascist can push their son/daughter to perform for the glory of the state or the dear leader. For example, many schools of the Soviet Union preached that the teachers should be proud of the fact that their students routinely outperform American students in mathematical competitions. Students who underperform are chastized severely and derided as the shame of their respective communities, I've even attended one of thos academies until I turned 11.

    Although as you noted capitalism does have a need to reproduce itself, but can't the same be said about any sociopolitical system? Surely communists and fascists attempt to futher promote their system by means that are often more viscious than those employed by the capitalists. Although capitalisms does have a potent way of motivating students to do well by promising prosperity and status, communistic socities have been known to do the same by explicit coercion. Today, we may notice that many wealthy North Korean fathers send their children to the universities so they may learn and grow for the glory of the dear leader.

    It seems to me that any system will reproduce itself and its proponents will attempt to compel the public to do its bidding. Self-reproducing is an inevitable move, its a way of sociopolitical survival. The problem is not with capitalism, communism, fascism or any other social, political or economical system of thought, the problem is with people thoughtlessly buying into the popular creed of their societies. Unfortunately, I don't know if this problem can be solved as the common folk have not displayed a great ability or enthusiasm with respect to critical thought at any point in history and that's unlikely to change in the near future. If I had to hazard a guess, the best way to bring about the desirable alterations is by radically restructuring the educational system where young students will be taught to think critically and autonomously instead of merely regurgitating what they've been taught. Yet, can anyone even begin to imagine the ruckus this plan would cause? Universities would fast go bankrupt if they accepted such a plan because very few students would be interested in receiving such an education. Similarly, many teachers would likely be terminated due to their own incompetence at thinking critically and utter hostility to the very idea that students should think for themselves.
    Nothing you said detracts from my claim. It's not logical to make the jump from the claim that "capitalism is the cause of the need for achievement in our society" to "no other socioeconomic system causes the need for achievement."
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  2. #92
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Nothing you said detracts from my claim. It's not logical to make the jump from the claim that "capitalism is the cause of the need for achievement in our society" to "no other socioeconomic system causes the need for achievement."
    capitalism is the cause of society. ok?

  3. #93
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    capitalism is the cause of society. ok?
    What are you blathering about?
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  4. #94
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What are you blathering about?
    its not nice to answer to question with a question..

  5. #95
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    No.

  6. #96
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Nothing you said detracts from my claim.."
    Your claim was that X evinces a problem with capitalism. My response was that X results due to not only capitalism but also other sociopolitical systems and therefore its a mistake to attribute that property to capitalism. Instead X should be regarded as a result of any sociopolitical system and for this reason the assertion that X is a problem with Capitalism is necessarily imprecise.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #97
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I was reading this thread when it first started, but haven't read much of anything since the first 30 or so posts.

    The article in the OP is outdated and unrealistic...I hardly think that is the reality anyone expects anymore. This article seems far more accurate and reflective of the roles of women and men in marriage and how these roles are being navigated and managed.

    The End of Men - Magazine - The Atlantic
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  8. #98
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's not logical to make the jump from the claim that "capitalism is the cause of the need for achievement in our society" to "no other socioeconomic system causes the need for achievement."
    I've made no such leap, but by contrast showed that your statement that I've critiqued subtly presupposes the leap. Although you did not state that "no other socioeconomic system causes the need for achievement.", you've maintained that the need to over-achieve is caused by capitalism. "And this is not a gender problem, but rather a problem with capitalism." By doing so you've unduly singled out capitalism as a problematic ideology by ignoring the fact that other sociopolitical systems contain the same defect.

    However, it seems that at a later point you've rectified that statement by stating that in our society the need to over-achieve evinces a problem with capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "capitalism is the cause of the need for achievement in our society.
    In this case any critique of a non-capitalistic ideology is irrelevant because we live in a Capitalist system and there is therefore no error in saying that the over-achievement problem in our society is caused by Capitalism. The true error that I thought you were guilty of was contained in the supposition that in general or in all cases over-achievement is caused by capitalism. It seemed that this is what you were saying at first and that is the conclusion I've critiqued, yet your last response forced me to discover that not reading all of your posts in this exchange led to a misinterpretation of your position.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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