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  1. #51
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Redistribution as a means to correct the unnecessary flaws of the market is a foundation of multiple welfare models, and I don't see how it would necessarily connect to marxism.
    You are probably right, but for the sake of learning something, I'm going to argue from my knowledge of this subject.

    Redistribution requires this logic of, what's yours is not yours, instead, it is part of the community, and the community has a right to what's theirs, so long as they have less. To each according to his need, and from each, according to his ability. This seems Marxist to me.

    It is interesting to see the communist card pop up once in a while even after two decades of the fall of the bipolar world. Trust me: the principles of marxism will be 100% "rendered void" from the picture in only a century or two.
    How will they be rendered void? Are we going to be having a big charity function?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    It seemed to me as though Sylvan dislikes the idea of capitalsim, instead choosing to both, control the market and profits, so as to spread the wealth around. He also stressed balance, in that paragraph, which translates to absolute equalty. I don't see how that is not communistic.

    Although, no one could have over 4 million dollars, but even so, the wealth would not be equal, and certain people would have more than needed, which is somewhat anticommunistic.

    Still, the principle is there; Mr. Marx is behind it.

    What is it called then if you create equality only to a certain degree? While it might not be communism in the purest sense, I don't see how you have rendered void, at least, the principles of Marxism from the picture.
    I suppose I should have asked a question for this test prior to posting my solution which is: As leader of the world do I have the ability to change people's attitudes for everyday living? That is the root of what I want to change. I want to change our concept of what we desire as to desire a lower standard of living.

    Idealistically, peoples motives would be altruistic and thus they would distribute wealth without any government needed to suggest this idea (I suppose this idea is communist/socialist, but I would prefer people to do this on their own) I suppose utopia would be my vision (well my version of it)

    My expectation of peoples motivations was why I wanted to take their wealth, because of my skepticism of their willingness to part with what I deem as not only necessary, but a comfortable amount (which I marked at 4 million).

    I dislike, the attitude of self-interest and that would be (if possible what I would change) and if not possible allocate excess individual resources to help others have a decent shot at the same opportunities as the upper class of the world.
    So my questions are:
    Are you sure my idea isn't more socialist than communist?
    Is that a fair answer? (to change not so much the government, but the people themselves thus rendering the government to be unnecessary)
    Does it matter if my answer has any practicalities?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It is interesting to see the communist card pop up once in a while even after two decades of the fall of the bipolar world. Trust me: the principles of marxism will be 100% "rendered void" from the picture in only a century or two.
    perhaps, but the supreme leader of the world is free to redesign whatever principles he/she wishes. You can take a little from column A and a little from column B. Do you think it's possible to modify the principles of marxism to produce a more desirable result? Is it possible that we might have some semblance of equality and capitalism at the same time with a little imagination?

  4. #54
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I'll try to keep up, but please mind the language barrier. It's hard to express myself in english on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Redistribution requires this logic of, what's yours is not yours, instead, it is part of the community
    Not necessarily, it depends on the model.

    Some models see redistribution as a correction of the imperfect workings of the invisible hand. These are natural and seemingly correctable deficiencies. By theory, the elite works harder than the lower class, therefore they deserve to earn more than other people, but they might gain a surplus which they haven't "earned" because of said imperfections of the market. In this theory, redistribution is a tool to give people the proper payment for their hard work by taking the surplus from the elite.

    Other models focus on a more practical approach: poverty means huge costs for the state itself, and it decreases the possibility of important investments and development, which means fighting poverty is a common goal for the whole society. Plus it helps to erase the "tension" in the lower class which, if mistreated, could lead to further costly measures. This model presumes that it is a profitable thing for the elite to sacrifice some of their income for this goal, so ultimately, it is a model of slow development. "What's yours is yours, but if you want to keep it, you better contribute - we'll tax the shit out of you either way."

    And there are models which handle redistribution as a moral matter, for they think "equality" means not only equal chances but equal means.

    I'm sure you're able to determine which one of the three is more leftist.

    To sum up: I think there's a lot more to progressive redistribution (and marxism too, btw) than you think of. It exists inside and outside of communist economic policy, so you can't imagine marxism without redistribution, but an allocation of means does not necessarily imply a communist approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    How will they be rendered void? Are we going to be having a big charity function?
    Distance heals almost everything. It'll be just another example of a failed attempt. Eventually, increased state intervention will be detached from the shadows of the SU.

    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    perhaps, but the supreme leader of the world is free to redesign whatever principles he/she wishes. You can take a little from column A and a little from column B. Do you think it's possible to modify the principles of marxism to produce a more desirable result? Is it possible that we might have some semblance of equality and capitalism at the same time with a little imagination?
    I'll get back to this later.

  5. #55
    Amazing Spambot! Cloudblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Let's say that you are now some how the supreme leader of the entire world... What would you do with your new found power? How do you think your subjects would define you? What would your world look like? Both serious and fantasy answers are welcome.
    If I was supreme leader of the world, I would make it beautiful place filled with flora, peace, and good spirits.
    The first thing I would do is ask for some vanilla ice cream...
    Then I would assemble some the best university professors and students to do research and science
    Schools would be a heaven for learning, everyone in one grade, free to learn at their own pace and anything they want, untill their ready for higher learning at a college or university.
    My world would have one single currency, where you can use anywhere.
    and thats all I got...good thread...
    Last edited by Cloudblue; 05-21-2010 at 10:03 PM.
    Kindblue,from globalchatter...
    And still wonders were it has gone...

  6. #56
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Interesting. I need to get back into economics.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  7. #57
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudblue View Post
    Schools would be a heaven for learning, everyone in one grade, free to learn at their own pace ans anything they want, untill their ready for higher learning at a college or university.
    Your universe is a hell for teachers . Unless, of course, you have enough teachers. Make teaching a respectable profession (*) and learning popular (**)

    (*) No-one should ever say "You have a PhD! What are you doing teaching at a technical school? Isn't that a waste of your capacities?" It's not. I know that's the general sentiment here. If you could change that, oh supreme leader? Then I'd happily teach whoever wants to learn!

    (**) Otherwise most people will take a very slow pace, leaving your world without production.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  8. #58
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    Leader of the world... For one, I would put more funding into a space program. We'd need to expand to other planets and FAST. Some places have ridiculous population density. Secondly, I would use a system of carefully placed agents to encourage intellectual approaches, and objectivity. Manipulative, but the only way to control society's views, is to influence the people. Furthermore, I'd make bait-and-strike a crime, due to the extremely amoral nature of using altruism to draw in victims of a crime. Regional policies would be present, with regions primarily defined by rivers, mountain ranges, ETC. While this would result in the division of already existing, larger territories previously known as countries, it would make management much easier. Impractically small areas would be sectioned out as research laboratories, power plants, observatories, and the like unless the regional administration has a conflicting law, or a landmark. Furthermore, I would make sure that there would be a fixed proportion of agents for my successors, and make sure that the administration preserves my ideals as law for the next leaders. As for education, students would receive basic education up to a certain point, at which point they would either choose to further receive general education (I.E. Today's system.) or they would choose an area, with each passing year becoming more specific, not unlike class advancement in some RPGs (I.E. Sciences, Biology, Medicine or Sciences, Biology, Genetics.) Trade would continue as normal, save for being under a single currency, named after the over-administration. Faces would be the first regional leaders of each area, and I'm pretty sure mine would figure in there somewhere, though I'd try to make it obscure. (I.E. Large, or awkward denominations.) 100 to the standard, like the dollar. Internal policies would be handled by regional administrations, though adherence to my over-administration would be superseding in the event of conflict. Personal administrative matters would include resolving conflicts between regions, and handling inter-regional law creation, as well as civilian requests for change in inter-regional policy. Scientific funding would be mostly focused on allowing scientists to gather the needed materials for their projects, and equipment synthesis, as opposed to actually giving them the equipment. As for the handling of deviant groups and criminals... Imprisonment, with death penalties included, for those who are deemed to have such an extreme devotion to a destructive cause that they wouldn't be dissuaded, and would simply end up causing more problems no matter -where- they're placed. Executions in all forms would be handled by robotic systems, with deactivation in the form of needing to be recharged, every 5 minutes or the like. This would hopefully prevent massive, disastrous accidents from occurring. (I mean, you never know.) Most of what isn't mentioned here in an overarching or freakishly detailed manner would be handled by the regional administrations. In the extremely rare event that any classification is desired, or a point of debate is shown, I'll send one of my robotic minions to update this post.
    INTP,
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  9. #59
    Member colma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Your universe is a hell for teachers . Unless, of course, you have enough teachers. Make teaching a respectable profession (*) and learning popular (**)

    (*) No-one should ever say "You have a PhD! What are you doing teaching at a technical school? Isn't that a waste of your capacities?" It's not. I know that's the general sentiment here. If you could change that, oh supreme leader? Then I'd happily teach whoever wants to learn!

    (**) Otherwise most people will take a very slow pace, leaving your world without production.

    *Teacher is not a career it's something you are.

    Sorry, just had to throw that out there.


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    never." - Estienne de La Boetie

  10. #60
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    Put eugenics in use on a global scale would be my first action. Humans reproduce like rats, it's disgusting.

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