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  1. #21
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Well... I mean, I still don't agree.

    Irony and sarcasm have been introduced to me in the literary sense some years ago. Unless you can convince me that you are some kind of authority in this realm (i.e, an English professor, a linguist, etc), I'm not reforming my opinion.
    Well, you're welcome to think what you wish, but I think if you're a serious student of English you're doing yourself a bit of a disservice by not bothering to look it up. As you are to your capacity for critical thought if your opinion rests purely on the fallacy of appealing to authority.

    As for the first, here, I've done it for you: Online Etymology Dictionary

    And for the second: well, if the mere facts I've just linked aren't good enough for you. I'm a Professor of English. I hope you're suitably impressed.

    Yeah, reportive in that we don't always get connotation from whatever is essential in understanding what a word means wholly.
    I certainly struggled to do so from that sentence! Oh, alright, I get the gist, but seriously... I don't think you need to try QUITE so hard!

    You are being a little pedantic, but I'll just have to deal?[/QUOTE]

    I was being somewhat ironic actually

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: as neptune mentioned, language is constantly evolving, and in this case, I think the definitions are misleading if you compare them to the way the words are used by the majority of people today (whether you consider their usage technically correct, or not).

    In their commonly used forms today, "irony" basically = the classical situational irony, whereas "sarcasm" = the classical verbal irony, more or less.
    This is possibly the case for US speakers, but I think here in Britain most people of at least moderate intelligence could intuit (even if not always define articulately) an essential distinction between verbal sarcasm and irony, and recognise the contrasting usages. I think irony (not posessing sarcastic intent) is reputedly a much more important ingredient in traditional British humour than it is in American humour, which may help explain people's relative familiarity with the concept. I know that when I have been over there my ironic asides have been misunderstood much more often than I would expect them to be here (though it does happen here too, maybe I'm just too damn ironic for my own good sometimes!).

    It's hard to argue the case for reconstituting the language unless you're going to insist on a parochial definition, but I'm pretty doubtful that the usage you refer to is by any means universal in the US either. Anyway, even if we accept that it is the most popular US usage, to take this as a case for accepting it as correct is merely following the ad populum fallacy. As long as the essential distinction remains (even if only in use among a better- informed minority) it is worth making for the edification of those who wish to join that minority. If the currently correct US usage becomes obsolete over time (as I can appreciate may hapen, particularly if not enough people who are capable of appreciating the difference adhere to it) then we will have yet another source of transatlantic confusion. Yay for progress!
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  2. #22
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Differences?
    This is not all encompassing, but for SARCASM to exist a human being must wield it, whereas LIFE ITSELF can be IRONIC without the participation of one or more humans.
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  3. #23
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I certainly struggled to do so from that sentence! Oh, alright, I get the gist, but seriously... I don't think you need to try QUITE so hard!
    Oh dang. I didn't proofread that.

    But since you "got the gist" I guess I don't have to try so hard anymore.



    I was being somewhat ironic actually
    Sure you know what that means?


  4. #24
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Sure you know what that means?

    Not as sure as you are, I grant you. But perhaps you will do me the honour of granting my paltry substantiated facts, and reasoning founded on mere logic, a moment's sojourn in the humbling shadow of your majestic unshakable certainty. Who knows but that that they might in return for your generosity bring just a glimmer of light to the great darkness cast by that mighty edifice, before they and I depart to pastures new?
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #25
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    This is irony.

    This is sarcasm.
    I don't think your first example is actually ironic. It's coincidental, sure, but I think the file would have to be named or make claim to something that's the exact opposite, like "virus-free" or something, to be ironic.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post

    Example - a waiter asks a superior:

    "What do you think about my performance?" (knowing it may not have been up to scratch)

    Irony: "You're doing extremely well except for the need to work on your plate-carrying technique, and perhaps a little forgetfulness over the orders from time to time."

    Or: "Your performance has been impressive, I was particularly impressed with the your eagerness to clear up the mess when you dropped those plates, and apologise to the customers for getting their orders wrong."

    Sarcasm: "Brilliant. So brilliant that you've dropped three plates all over the place this week, and half a dozen orders have been sent back for being wrong. Congratulations on your superb efforts."
    What I find interesting about all this is that irony and sarcasm is often used in a negative sense. Considering that the definition of sarcasm is to belittle someone, can it ever be a positive statement?

    Acrobat: "What do you think about my performance?" (worried and uncertain about it being up to scratch)

    Irony or Sarcasm: "Honestly? That was horrible, with such a low standard, you'll only be able to win local tournaments. What is this?! " - It's obviously a compliment.

    I've searched the internet, and while there is lots of discussion on ironic insults, there's little on ironic compliments. I'm just wondering, would the more correct term for this sort of thing to be teasing/jokes?

    How about self-depreciation? Would that be considered as sarcasm towards the self or irony? 'I'm such a great student' when failing. Would it depend on the afterthought?

    - I'm such a great student (The grades suggest otherwise.)

    vs

    - I'm such a great student (You got to be kidding me. You're a rubbish student!)

    The first line doesn't really have such a heavy negative intent. It's just pointing out the contrasting reality.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I don't think your first example is actually ironic. It's coincidental, sure, but I think the file would have to be named or make claim to something that's the exact opposite, like "virus-free" or something, to be ironic.
    Indeed. There are alot of people who say that experiencing a negative event, for example waiting several hours for a ship, only for it to come when you decide to leave the queue would not be considered as irony. It'd just be unfortunate/tragedy.

    At the same time, there are people who claim that murphy's law is like the irony of life events. Cosmic Irony and all that...

  8. #28
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    Irony is how soup would taste if it was cooked in a rusty cauldron.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Indeed. There are alot of people who say that experiencing a negative event, for example waiting several hours for a ship, only for it to come when you decide to leave the queue would not be considered as irony. It'd just be unfortunate/tragedy.

    At the same time, there are people who claim that murphy's law is like the irony of life events. Cosmic Irony and all that...
    Yes. For example, none of the examples in Alanis Morissette's song "Ironic" are actually ironic. However, it is ironic that a song called "Ironic" doesn't actually have a single example of irony. Just to even out the mix, here's sarcasm:

    Ironic is such a great song. It's so well-written.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  10. #30
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    The rule of thumb I go by:

    Verbal irony: What you really think is different from what you say but it's not obvious to others.
    Sarcasm: What you really think is different from what you say and it's obvious to others.

    Example--
    Friend: Hey, what do you think about this new dress?
    You: It looks really nice on you! (Thinking: That's the ugliest dress I've ever seen in my whole life.) ~ Verbal Irony

    Friend: Hey, what do you think about this new dress?
    You: It looks reaaaaaalllllllllllly nice on you. *eyeroll* (Thinking: That's the ugliest dress I've ever seen in my whole life.) ~ Sarcasm

    Hope that helps.
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