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  1. #21
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Just identifying with not knowing how you would react is one thing. Doesn't mean you wouldnt end up punished too. And you are really arguing a simplistic look on it. You keep insisting he just did it because he would have been shot and it would have happened anyway. You don't know that any of that is true.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Just identifying with not knowing how you would react is one thing. Doesn't mean you wouldnt end up punished too. And you are really arguing a simplistic look on it. You keep insisting he just did it because he would have been shot and it would have happened anyway. You don't know that any of that is true.
    I don't know, you are right. If he wasn't in danger, I guess they should have mentioned that in the article... Well, I am pretty sure there is some info missing here.

  3. #23
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yes, that is the thing bothering me in this. What he did was wrong, but since it wasn't illegal under that government, it is hard to tell if he should be punished.
    As far as I can tell their are two options.

    1) New states can retro-actively prosecute people for crimes committed under a former regime based on new laws.
    -Retroactive enforcement of criminal laws seems fundamentally unfair since there is no predictability.

    2) New states can prosecute people for crimes against humanity committed under former regimes.
    -This presumes that there is a higher law above the state.
    -Furthermore, there is no problem of predictability because it is assumed that at least some of the most egregious violations of this higher law are violations that all humans know or should know are wrong and punishable.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #24
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    I suppose the moral of the story would be? Don't be stupid enough to get involved with a government.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    I suppose the moral of the story would be? Don't be stupid enough to get involved with a government.
    Personally, I don't know if there is a moral to all this. This kind of thing has happened over and over again, it's happening right now and will happen in the future. Knowing all that, it seems that nobody has ever learned anything. There are superiors who issue orders and there are people who follow orders. And then there are people who choose to do neither, people who either choose to crawl under a rock and pretend that nothing is going on and people who choose to fight back. Who is right and who is wrong?

  6. #26
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I don't really get that national shame thing. Who is ashamed? The regular Germans? Why, if they didn't do anything? And how does it help to punish people who normally wouldn't get punished?
    you need to read up on nazi germany it seems. Not all soldiers involved in WWII is in prison but those there is clear evidence knew what they where doing has been sent to prison. SS was not just some regular military unit. As I remember even those high up in power did the same as this guy did and blamed others, even in the nurnburg processes.

    I thought WWII history was taught in Finland's schools, so it shouldnt come as a shock to most europeans that he got convicted.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    I thought WWII history was taught in Finland's schools, so it shouldnt come as a shock to most europeans that he got convicted.
    The war criminals I heard about before were the one's in charge. But I guess you are right that no matter how high you are you can always say you had no choice. Except if you are Hitler. Just one more reason why authoritarian government sucks..

  8. #28
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But from the example point of view, if I had been in the SS, which I expected to be fair and decent when I joined, but then was forced to kill, and I knew that the people I was forced to kill, would be killed regardless. (Because if I wouldn't do it, others would.) Then I would definatly kill.
    Now check it out: Right here is where the differences between a naturalistic and a theistic worldview come into play. In a theist world, you've still got God to answer to for your own actions, regardless of what someone else would have done. In a materialist world, your decision is valid.

    This isn't an argument, but rather just an observation.

  9. #29
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    SS was not just some regular military unit.*
    * with the exception of the Waffen SS, who were just battle troops.

  10. #30
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Now check it out: Right here is where the differences between a naturalistic and a theistic worldview come into play. In a theist world, you've still got God to answer to for your own actions, regardless of what someone else would have done. In a materialist world, your decision is valid.

    This isn't an argument, but rather just an observation.
    What if the main evil dude that tries to force me is there too, and I feel like capping him instead of the person I am told to kill. I'll be executed right after killing him, then the person that is supposed to be killed will be killed. So there will be three deaths, but at least I've killed that bastard!

    Even from a materialistic point of view, that can be appealing, and it's an outcome where even more people die.

    Ofcourse, if I know I can survive by obeying (for now), I could always get 'revenge' later, possibly without throwing my own life away. *ponders*

    Anyways, there's too much to consider to really make a choice. It depends on many factors of the situation. But yeah, if there truely was no other choice. Either me and the person I am told to kill die, or just the person I am told to kill dies. And there's no way around that. Then I wouldn't need much time to think before reaching a descision. I wouldn't like it. I'd hate it. I'd hate being forced to do it. But like you said, I don't have a God that I need to consider, or an afterlife to worry about. So my choice would be simple.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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