User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 52

  1. #11
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    6,075

    Default

    Aren't you extrapolating reasons here? A murderer can say anything about something that happened years ago.

    He was part of a death squad. You really think the death squad was full of people who didn't really want to do their job, they were in fear for their lives?

    In December, Boere testified that he had shot Fritz Bicknese, a chemist and father of 12; bicycle seller Teun de Groot, who helped Jews go into hiding; and Dutch resistance member Frans Kusters.
    He told the state court that he and fellow members of the SS Silbertanne (Silver Pine) death squad had been informed by their superiors that the men were to be killed in retaliation for attacks by the resistance.

    "I knew that if I didn't carry out my orders I would be breaking my oath and would be shot myself," he said.

    "At no time in 1944 did I act with the feeling that I was committing a crime," he added. "Today, after 65 years, I naturally see things from a different perspective."

    But the presiding judge, Gerd Nohl, told the court that all three killings had been carried out "on a totally random basis" and constituted murder.

    "These were murders that could hardly be outdone in terms of baseness and cowardice - beyond the respectability of any soldier."

    Members of the death squad had worn "civilian clothes, rain coats, and carried out the crimes either early in the morning or late in the evening", and the risk to Boere when he shot the three men had been "zero", he added.
    You are quoting his cover as if it's truth.

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    This is an excellent example of why the state is not the ultimate source of law. What he did was technically legal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still murder.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #13
    Phantonym
    Guest

    Default

    Actions have consequences, simple as that.

  4. #14
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    This is an excellent example of why thf there was a coup tomorrow and they made it illegal to ... have long hair, but so that it was also illegal yesterday to hae state is not the ultimate source of law. What he did was technically legal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still murder.
    Yes, that is the thing bothering me in this. What he did was wrong, but since it wasn't illegal under that government, it is hard to tell if he should be punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    Actions have consequences, simple as that.
    No, no, it isn't that easy. This is about the basics of law. If something isn't illegal today, how can someone say tomorrow that it was illegal after all?

  5. #15
    Phantonym
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    No, no, it isn't that easy. This is about the basics of law. If something isn't illegal today, how can someone say tomorrow that it was illegal after all?
    Welcome to the world of the human beings.

    The crimes were committed during a war. Under normal circumstances, if people commit crimes and for some reason they're not deemed as illegal at the time they were committed, then it is the law and they wouldn't be punished. Ethically and morally, it's a whole another matter. But under such exceptional circumstances as the war, it's different. The laws that were established then, in this case by such a government as the Nazi government, laws that were forced by a small fraction that broke away from the rest of the world and that tried to establish their laws unto others and that was fought against. That itself is illegal no matter what. War is bad, man. But whatever...

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    To many variables to consider in order to make an informed opinion about this particular situation.

    If I don't kill, will the people be killed regardless? If I kill, will I be killed regardless? And so on and so forth. That would ultimatly influence my descision.


    But from the example point of view, if I had been in the SS, which I expected to be fair and decent when I joined, but then was forced to kill, and I knew that the people I was forced to kill, would be killed regardless. (Because if I wouldn't do it, others would.) Then I would definatly kill.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #17
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    6,075

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But from the example point of view, if I had been in the SS, which I expected to be fair and decent when I joined, but then was forced to kill, and I knew that the people I was forced to kill, would be killed regardless. (Because if I wouldn't do it, others would.) Then I would definatly kill.
    So you don't think it is a problem killing an innocent person because someone else might? How many people put their lives on the line (and got killed by death squads) to help other people? Personal responsibility does matter, no matter what situation you are in.

  8. #18
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    827 sp/so
    Posts
    20,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    No, no, it isn't that easy. This is about the basics of law. If something isn't illegal today, how can someone say tomorrow that it was illegal after all?
    I wouldn't say that "no ex post facto laws" should apply to human rights violations... otherwise isn't Pinochet a good guy?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #19
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yes, that is the thing bothering me in this. What he did was wrong, but since it wasn't illegal under that government, it is hard to tell if he should be punished.



    No, no, it isn't that easy. This is about the basics of law. If something isn't illegal today, how can someone say tomorrow that it was illegal after all?
    There may be things that are currently legal under a country's law but illegal under international law. Like war crimes.

    Then there's the question of personal responsibility and morals.
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

  10. #20
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    So you don't think it is a problem killing an innocent person because someone else might? How many people put their lives on the line (and got killed by death squads) to help other people? Personal responsibility does matter, no matter what situation you are in.
    Usually the self-preservation instinct overrides such moral questions. I personally think that I am quite good but I really can't say what I would do in such a situation. On the other hand you know it would be the right thing to do, but on the other hand, what is the point being a saint if they are sure to die?

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] In order to date me
    By Poki in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-07-2012, 01:50 PM
  2. Would you cheat or condone cheating in order to be loyal?
    By ygolo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 08-09-2012, 06:38 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-10-2012, 05:38 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-29-2010, 07:45 PM
  5. In order to learn...
    By nothappy in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-24-2008, 02:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO