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  1. #41
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    When exactly is that?
    Well, we do know that one equals one, so in essence if someone tells you that it doesn't you can say that they are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Is that a clever way to say we should never share our opinion of wrong/right, or do you truly believe that is even possible?

    Right and wrong don't exist. People create meaning. But there are tendencies. Some values are shared by many and some by a few. Might doesn't always make right though.

    At the end of the day everyone is entitled to both ignore others and share opinions with others.
    It's how I rationalize my indecisiveness.

  2. #42
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I've kind of stumbled with this recently..I'm not so sure what I think about it.

    I guess my question is..is right for you to tell a person, say a close friend, whether something is right or wrong? Is it right for us to have that jurasdiction?
    I am certain I have posted it before but David Keirsey's quote at the beginning of Please Understand Me is a good place to start when asking yourself this question:

    DIFFERENT DRUMMERS
    Excerpted from Please Understand Me II
    Copyright © 1998 by David Keirsey

    If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.

    Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.

    Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances,
    try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.

    Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be.

    I do not, for the moment at least, ask you to understand me.
    That will come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.

    I may be your spouse, your parent, your offsping, your friend, or your colleague.
    If you will allow me any of my own wants, or emotions, or beliefs, or actions, then
    you open yourself, so that some day these ways of mine might not seem so wrong,
    and might finally appear to you as right -- for me. To put up with me is the first
    step to understanding me. Not that you embrace my ways as right for you, but
    that you are no longer irritated or disappointed with me for my seeming waywardness.
    And in understanding me you might come to prize my differences from you, and,
    far from seeking to change me, preserve and even nurture those differences.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    how do you know though? Legal vs. illegal? Just about everything else is perspective based.
    No its not, I'm sorry but that's pernicious modernist crappola, is it "perspective" if your mate decides to slice people up like Dalmer or rape, murder and bury them in the basement like Gein? Nope! Its absurd to suggest otherwise but all to often its the case because of almost universal bad conscience everyone prefers to dispense with right and wrong as categories altogether, even elevate it to the stage of high philosophy. Bogus.

    To give more practical examples I dont think its even wrong for friends to stop friends driving when they've been drinking or to even stop them drinking when they've had enough.

    Hell I wish there was more of it. If there was far greater and more tangible social censure of conduct, by friends not letting friends ruin their lives and others, then maybe there'd be less recourse to the law, less prosecutions and litigation, suits, compensation claims, all that legalistic crappola which is a great business, long on law and short on justice.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No its not, I'm sorry but that's pernicious modernist crappola, is it "perspective" if your mate decides to slice people up like Dalmer or rape, murder and bury them in the basement like Gein? Nope! Its absurd to suggest otherwise but all to often its the case because of almost universal bad conscience everyone prefers to dispense with right and wrong as categories altogether, even elevate it to the stage of high philosophy. Bogus.

    To give more practical examples I dont think its even wrong for friends to stop friends driving when they've been drinking or to even stop them drinking when they've had enough.

    Hell I wish there was more of it. If there was far greater and more tangible social censure of conduct, by friends not letting friends ruin their lives and others, then maybe there'd be less recourse to the law, less prosecutions and litigation, suits, compensation claims, all that legalistic crappola which is a great business, long on law and short on justice.
    I see your point and I'm interested in trying to understand it more.

    So, out of honest confusion, how do you know if something is right or wrong? I think you're brushing on the act of telling someone whether something is right or wrong, but I'm asking to where do you find the truth in what's right and what's wrong?
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #45
    Senor Membrane
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    I'm going to answer the OP first, then go through the posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I guess my question is..is right for you to tell a person, say a close friend, whether something is right or wrong? Is it right for us to have that jurasdiction? Sometimes I don't know whether or not I should be trying to control a person out of a bad situation or let them make their own decisions whilst providing them with my opinions regarding it.
    Usually I don't try to control people. If I think they are in danger or might put other people in danger, then I will probably inform them about how I see things might play out, but still I would let them take the risk if I was sure they see the possible danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    So..should we direct others in these situations and make them believe that what they're doing is wrong? or should we realize that every person is an individual and can/should make their own decisions.
    I see everything as highly subjective. I don't believe that my way is the best, and I don't want people to follow my lead. If they follow, they are the type of people who might get somewhere with it. It's very rare for me to spontaneously give advice to anyone and I basically never try to force anyone to do something. I don't believe in that stuff.

    Actually, today I was going to the storage in the basement of the building and had my whole lap full of some stuff. Two kids came and helped me to get through the door. I walked past them and noticed that they stayed to hang at the door (which they probably weren't allowed to do, since it was a locked door). For a brief moment I thought that I should maybe say something to them as they were most likely not supposed to play in the basement. Anyhow, I didn't, since I thought I was coming back the same way anyway, and could tell them to leave then. After I got the stuff to the basement I came back and the other kid had closed the door leaving her fingertips stuck in between. That made me feel a bit like a jerk, but then again I thought that it's not too bad since her fingers were ok and they both learned a lesson, I suppose...

  6. #46
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    Generally, when i tell someone the "right" way to do something, it means my preferred method requires minimum effort for maximum pay off.
    Weathergirl: District 38 is sunny. Slight rock showers this morning. Chance of rock showers into the afternoon—20 percent. District 39 is cloudy. Chance of rock showers this afternoon—10 percent.
    Edward: Bebop here here! Alright woo hoo!
    Weathergirl: Chance of rock showers today upgraded to 90 percent.
    Edward: Really.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I see your point and I'm interested in trying to understand it more.

    So, out of honest confusion, how do you know if something is right or wrong? I think you're brushing on the act of telling someone whether something is right or wrong, but I'm asking to where do you find the truth in what's right and what's wrong?
    OK, I kind of answered this in another thread, I reckon that whether you consider it a "logical fallacy", ie the "naturalistic fallacy", or not the very fact that philosophers have been able to in the first place imagine the very idea of a "natural law" or "human nature" suggests a certain commonality or consensus across cultures, epoches and context as to right and wrong.

    Now I'm not a fan really of ideas like natural law in the sense that too often they are intellectualised abstract principles or idle speculation, however I do believe in a range of things, practical reason, ancestoral memory, histories, which in some amount to the same thing in fact. It might seem like semantics to make that distinction, a difference of words only but I'm not so sure about it.

    So from this you know what is right and wrong, it is the accumulated experience of generations, not just yourself and if you examine it further still I would suggest that its derivative of empathy, sympathy and that theory of mind possessed by any and all healthy beings and tested by circumstances and time honoured. It ranges from the simple and seemingly obvious to the more complex and contentious.

    I'm interested in moral philosophy and ethics so do a lot of reading on the topic too, its almost like an addiction and I lose sleep if I find a good author on the topic, so its not as if I'm permanently decided on most topics and I'm open to persuasion which is reasoned and simply defence, entrenchment, sophistry or anything like that. In the mean time my practical reason serves me well.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK, I kind of answered this in another thread, I reckon that whether you consider it a "logical fallacy", ie the "naturalistic fallacy", or not the very fact that philosophers have been able to in the first place imagine the very idea of a "natural law" or "human nature" suggests a certain commonality or consensus across cultures, epoches and context as to right and wrong.

    Now I'm not a fan really of ideas like natural law in the sense that too often they are intellectualised abstract principles or idle speculation, however I do believe in a range of things, practical reason, ancestoral memory, histories, which in some amount to the same thing in fact. It might seem like semantics to make that distinction, a difference of words only but I'm not so sure about it.

    So from this you know what is right and wrong, it is the accumulated experience of generations, not just yourself and if you examine it further still I would suggest that its derivative of empathy, sympathy and that theory of mind possessed by any and all healthy beings and tested by circumstances and time honoured. It ranges from the simple and seemingly obvious to the more complex and contentious.

    I'm interested in moral philosophy and ethics so do a lot of reading on the topic too, its almost like an addiction and I lose sleep if I find a good author on the topic, so its not as if I'm permanently decided on most topics and I'm open to persuasion which is reasoned and simply defence, entrenchment, sophistry or anything like that. In the mean time my practical reason serves me well.
    Well put. I wish I had the intellectual capacity to soak this in entirely and remark on it at an equal level.

    I believe a key point that you made that I find your answer in is the "accumulated experience of generations" and how that plays into what is considered right and wrong. And for that answer, I thank you.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #49
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Well, we do know that one equals one, so in essence if someone tells you that it doesn't you can say that they are wrong.
    So....this only works with 1st grade math?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #50
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    I had a friend that was alcoholic & anorexic, her life was spiraling out of control, she became a porn star and even got mixed up with meth . I tried to help her but she was very defensive wouldn't listen, she thought I was trying to be her mom. Sometimes people wont stop until they are ready to... I even wrote her a heart to heart letter, she didn't appreciate it at the time because she wasn't ready. So I backed off, we didn't see each other for a long time. You can try to help but it wont always work, but I think its worth it to try anyway...thats what friends are for right? I dunno, I guess it just depends on the person and their situation. If its about petty stuff and your nagging that could be annoying, if its serious definitely try and help.
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

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