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Thread: Common Folkways

  1. #81
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Partially correct. This claim alone does not show that the perceiver exists or the thing that is having the perceptions exists. It shows that a perception exists and therefore something exists.
    Because something which perceives exists (whatever it might be), or because perception exists and perception cannot exist without something to perceive?
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #82
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Because something which perceives exists (whatever it might be), or because perception exists and perception cannot exist without something to perceive?
    You're thinking about the matter from an empirical perspective or making inferences about the situation on the basis of what we know about the world. In this case we are not talking about how the world works in general, just about this one particular set of statements in isolation.

    1. I perceive that there is a table in front of me.
    2. I may be wrong about that there is a table in front of me.
    3. I cannot be wrong about that I perceive for a table to be in front of me.
    4. Since I perceive that there is a table in front of me, I perceive something.
    5. Since I perceive something, a perception exists.

    You certainly have made an astutue observation regarding that there cannot be a perception unless there is a perceiver. However, in the context of this argument, the existence of the perceiver has been merely assumed rather than arrived at with a sound argument. Although the argument does smuggle an unjustified premise into the discussion, its conclusion does not rely on that premise. It is unjustified because an argument about the nature and existence of a self is required. In other words, we need to prove that a self exists and it has a certain set of qualities rather than just assuming it does. Since we have not done so, we should not infer that perceptions exist because the perceiver exists as the premise that a perceive exists is simply unwarranted. As aforementioned, we can do without that premise. Consider the chain of reasoning below.

    1. There is a perception of a table and its existence in the external world.
    2. This perception may be mistaken or even hallucinatory.
    3. Even if the perceptions are mistaken or do not convey anything that exists in the world, the perceptions exist.
    4. Since the perceptions exist, something exists.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #83
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    4. Since the perceptions exist, something exists.
    Right. And are you saying that we know something exists because something exists to be perceiving (even if the perceptions are entirely mistaken), or that we know something exists because perception, by definition, cannot occur without something to perceive?

    I'd be willing to go along with the former, but the latter is shaky. Hallucinations are as real as can be to the perceiver, but all their existence evidences is that something exists to be hallucinating, even if that "something" is just one "instance" of the ultimate reality itself, appearing as a separate identity to us as a result of our categories.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #84
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Right. And are you saying that we know something exists because something exists to be perceiving
    I had only this notion in mind. The perception in itself exists even if what is perceived is an illusion. If I perceive a dragon, I know for a fact that a cognition of perceiving a dragon exists. Whether a dragon really exists or that I exist are questions that aren't a part of this inquiry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Hallucinations are as real as can be to the perceiver, but all their existence evidences is that something exists to be hallucinating, even if that "something" is just one "instance" of the ultimate reality itself, appearing as a separate identity to us as a result of our categories.
    A person who is hallucinating can be certain that something exists because his perceptions exist despite the fact that they do not mirror any entity of the external world.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #85
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Where does the sense of touch come into play with your idea of perception? Anyone could demonstrate that a table was real simply by dropping it on the head of the person who questioned it's existence. Problem solved.

    Hopefully that doesn't come across as too aggressive and unsophisticated. I'm really not a mean person. It's actually a pretty cute table, so maybe umm.. a person wouldn't mind getting smacked with it. Like a quaint little IKEA coffee table. Made out of particle board. Might cause a tear and a lump or two, I guess. But quite cute.

    No wait.. We don't anyone to cry, do we? That's wrong. WRONG!! And sad. I was totally lying. It's a foam table. Made by Nerf. But it's still a table too! How about that, right? Foam tables.. what will they think of next? This way, one can just keep smacking and smacking. Nothing better than multiple demonstrations. And no pain or tears. It'll be fun.

  6. #86
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    In other words, he failed to approach the topic in the manner you dictate?

    The arrogant bastard.
    then why should ANYONE bother starting threads? so that SW and SW can focus on thier pet topic and ignore the OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Well, you never thought twice about contaminating my threads with irrelevant and substanceless one-liners, have you? So, what are you complaining about?
    that I would quit if asked for... it's called decency

    plus, if we're guilty of behavior from over a year ago, you're still a SJ hater
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #87
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    plus, if we're guilty of behavior from over a year ago, you're still a SJ hater
    Hitler loved Jews one year later. Didn't you know?
    The future is for the unafraid.

  8. #88
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Where does the sense of touch come into play with your idea of perception? Anyone could demonstrate that a table was real simply by dropping it on the head of the person who questioned it's existence. Problem solved.
    That has been known as the problem of other minds. How can you be certain that you are not hallucinating or that just like in the Matrix, everything you experience is in virtual reality? Even if you experience the pain of a table falling on your head, the pain could have been stimulated by your own delusions or virtual reality. That does not mean that we should start questioning our sanity. From our experiences with the world, many of us could be confident that we are sane and we don't live in the virtual reality as we simply found no empirical evidence to believe that we are insane or live in a make belief world. None of our experiences even lead us to believe that we aren't interacting with the real world. However, can we rule out the theoretical possibility that we are not perceiving the real world and everything we experience is a concoction of our imagination? We can't, as well as have is a very high probability that we are perceiving the real world. All probabilistic arguments, by definition lack certainty, even if the rate is at 99.999%. There is a high enough of a chance for us to believe that we are living in reality, however, not high enough for us to be absolutely certain that we are. In other words, we can say that the proposition that we are living in the real world is beyond reasonable doubt, however, it is not beyond all possible doubt.

    All of this will seem irrelevant or pointless unless you keep in mind that the discussion took place within the context of what makes indubitable, or certain knowledge rather than just reliable knowledge or knowledge that we need to use in making practial decisions in life. The main implication of the discourse was that it is possible for us to have certain knowledge about something just by examining our private experiences and not studying anything of the external world. That is, we can have certain knowledge of that we have some kind of cognitive experiences. In other words, we can be certain that thoughts of some kind exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    then why should ANYONE bother starting threads? so that SW and SW can focus on thier pet topic and ignore the OP?



    that I would quit if asked for... it's called decency

    plus, if we're guilty of behavior from over a year ago, you're still a SJ hater
    I don't think you did this over a year ago. It was very recent, in the 'just my opinion thread'.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #89
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    but I stop if asked- I don't go on for 5 pages....
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #90
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    but I stop if asked- I don't go on for 5 pages....
    If you stay true to that plan, I won't invade your threads.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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