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Thread: Common Folkways

  1. #41
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Typology is not an empirical study. It belongs in the discipline of philosophy where insights are to be derived by seeking logical consistency within the terms involved. Jung pointed out some very basic premises about human nature, which are nearly indubitable. Everyone has a tendency to use imagination, everyone has a tendency to use the five senses, everyone has a tendency to emote and to perceive structure in the world by conscious thought. Its also the case that since many of these cognitive processes are antithetical to one another, some must be stronger than others. This is how we get a hierarchy of cognitive functions. There is no novel scientific investigation in the business of typological inquiry; almost none of it includes any kind of an observation of people. It is nearly exclusively about establishing the proper logical relations between faculties of the human mind that Jung has already discovered.
    And it doesn't matter if it doesn't accurately describe humans as they exist, or predict behavior?

    Epicycle theory was perfectly logically sound and valid, except that it didn't describe the world as it existed. How dare that Polish folk astronomer destroy the beautiful logical framework based on the observations of that giant of antiquity, Ptolemy?

  2. #42
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ It's also pretty strange that SW made up the term "folk typology" himself and then declared its definition objectively verifiable, isn't it?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So other than the fact that all this business is non-empirical, which I think you'll have no one disagree with you about, what are you asserting, and what empirical evidence do you have to back that up?
    This is a difficult question to answer because I am not quite sure what you are asking me.

    If you are asking me what to do I believe, then I would say I believe that we are ends in ourselves and not means to an end.

    And I believe we can learn about our world by applying reason to evidence.

    And if you are asking me what evidence do I have for these two beliefs, I can only refer you to Emmanuel Kant and the Enlightenment.

  4. #44
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's interesting, because a google search for "folk typology" turns up nothing but threads on this forum. As far as I can tell, you invented this term yourself, decided on its definition arbitrarily, and then decided it wasn't subjective...based on what? Your own opinions about which typology is useful and which is not??
    Yes, I've coined this term, but that does not mean its arbitrary. The word 'folk' is used in a very conventional sense. It generally refers to folk theories or ideas people have about the world that are poorly supported by plausible arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's consistently amusing how Ti assumes itself to be objective/can't recognize its own subjectivity.??
    I don't think Ti does any of this. Ti is only an unconscious tendency to perceive structure in the world in response to stimuli originating within the mind more so than the external world. Ti people may often think they are less biased than they really are. I never said that I wasn't biased or in some regard subjective. I only maintained that my definition of folk typology is non-subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's also hilarious that you consider yourself some kind of objective authority on the topic because you paid to self-publish a book about it..??
    I consider myself an authority because of the merit of the arguments alone. Who the book was published by has nothing to do with whether or not it is authoritative. If I continue seeing that the book receives readership, I will go ahead and publish it professionally. A publicist already has taken a deep interest in my work. Publishing professionally is time-consuming and requires a great deal of dedication. You don't want to go through the trouble unless you know that your book will be widely read.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What source for the definition of "folk typology" can you cite outside of your own opinions and self-invented definitions?
    Self-invented definitions are acceptable if they are supported by good arguments.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is a difficult question to answer because I am not quite sure what you are asking me.

    If you are asking me what to do I believe, then I would say I believe that we are ends in ourselves and not means to an end.

    And I believe we can learn about our world by applying reason to evidence.

    And if you are asking me what evidence do I have for these two beliefs, I can only refer you to Emmanuel Kant and the Enlightenment.
    How do you reconcile Enlightenment with industrialization and the triumph of empiricism? The death of rationalism as it corresponded to the great dialecticians of the age?

  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And it doesn't matter if it doesn't accurately describe humans as they exist, or predict behavior??
    Unfortunately not. As far as describing human behavior, typology is almost completely worthless. Psychology is the proper study for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Epicycle theory was perfectly logically sound and valid, except that it didn't describe the world as it existed.?
    The trouble with some logical consistent arguments is that they start on false premises and entail untenable conclusions. If we start with premises that are clearly true, we shouldn't have that problem. Generally, we need empirical evidence to find the proper premises, yet rare cases of exception do exist. Jung seems to have discovered properties of the human mind that nearly unquestionably exist. After all these tendencies are as simple as merely using senses, abstract perception, conscious perception of structure and emoting. Who could argue that these things don't exist or that some of these cognitions do not oppose one another?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #47
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    Alchemy is folk chemistry.

    Astrology is folk astronomy.

    And MBTI is folk psychology.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    I just really want some asian food right now.
    Good idea. I'm a little hungry.

  9. #49
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yes, I've coined this term, but that does not mean its arbitrary. The word 'folk' is used in a very conventional sense. It generally refers to folk theories or ideas people have about the world that are poorly supported by plausible arguments.
    Plausible vs. implausible is not an objective science. It's subject to opinion. Large portions of psychology academia find Jung's personality theories entirely implausible--you may disagree, but that doesn't make you objectively correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I don't think Ti does any of this. Ti is only an unconscious tendency to perceive structure in the world in response to stimuli originating within the mind more so than the external world. Ti people may often think they are less biased than they really are. I never said that I wasn't biased or in some regard subjective. I only maintained that my definition of folk typology is non-subjective.
    It cannot be non-subjective if you yourself invented the term and are the only one that seems to take it particularly seriously.

    Ti dominant people have a habit of overestimating the objectivity of their own positions. They're just so certain that their idea of what constitutes logical consistency is indisputable that they delude themselves into believing that their own ideas constitute objective truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I consider myself an authority because of the merit of the arguments alone. I never bothered trying to publish it professionally as I never had the time. Perhaps in the future, I will make an effort to do so. From what I could see, contrary to what I thought was initially the case, there is a readership for my work.
    Again, evaluation of the merit of your arguments on any topic that lacks empirical evidence is a purely subjective endeavor, no matter how much faith you have in the supposed objective superiority of your own internal reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Self-invented definitions are acceptable if they are supported by good arguments.
    The definition of what constitutes "good argument" is subjective. You may believe your own arguments to be good, consistent, and sound, but you seem a little delusional when it comes to accepting the idea that these evaluations of your arguments still constitute only your own opinions and, without empirical evidence, are in no way objectively verifiable.

    What an INTP stereotype.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Unfortunately not. As far as describing human behavior, typology is almost completely worthless. Psychology is the proper study for that matter.
    So... why do you bother then?

    The trouble with some logical consistent arguments is that they start on false premises and entail untenable conclusions. If we start with premises that are clearly true, we shouldn't have that problem. Generally, we need empirical evidence to find the proper premises, yet rare cases of exception do exist. Jung seems to have discovered properties of the human mind that nearly unquestionably exist. After all these tendencies are as simple as merely using senses, abstract perception, conscious perception of structure and emoting. Who could argue that these things don't exist?
    I think therefore I am, but because he is, does he necessarily think?

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