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  1. #1
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Who would you have been in Islamic Europe? Or myths about "Europe" (split)

    It's funny how people stick to their ethnicity/culture/country/language/roots

    I'd like to be Moorish or secularized Spanish if I lived back then. Just because it's comfortable.
    I mean, the moors were cleanly, fairly secular, highly standing in science...
    Being an innkeeper in Córdoba was probably more grandiose than being the King of France.
    At least less odor, ignorance and faulty medical practice
    Oh, and running water...

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #2
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    It's funny how people stick to their ethnicity/culture/country/language/roots

    I'd like to be Moorish or secularized Spanish if I lived back then. Just because it's comfortable.
    I mean, the moors were cleanly, fairly secular, highly standing in science...
    Being an innkeeper in Córdoba was probably more grandiose than being the King of France.
    At least less odor, ignorance and faulty medical practice
    Oh, and running water...
    As a matter of fact, what you say is a politically correct myth. Andalucia never was a free society: in many aspects, it was far worst than the rest of Spain. For instance, Averroes could publish his books ONLY in Christian kingdoms, while his work was publicly ostracized and burned at home. The dreaded Spanish Inquisition only happened centuries later.

    Technically, Western Europe became far more advanced than the rest of the world (China included) as soon as the 12th century.

    If you compare the amount of technicity and scientific knowledge required by their respective architecture styles, or the way the land was organized and ruled, it's pretty obvious.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    As a matter of fact, what you say is a politically correct myth. Andalucia never was a free society: in some ways, it was far worst than the rest of Spain. For instance, Averroes could publish his works ONLY in Christian kingdoms, while his work was publicly ostracized and burned at home. The dreaded Spanish Inquisition only happened centuries later.

    Technically, Western Europe became far more advanced than the rest of the world (China included) as soon as the 11-12th century.

    If you compare the amount of technicity and scientific knowledge required by their respective architecture styles, or the way the land was organized and ruled, it's pretty obvious.
    Interesting, I will have to look into it further. Not really buying it straight off.
    Seems a bit far-fetched, but it might hold some water.

    Got any links or book tips?

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Interesting, I will have to look into it further. Not really buying it straight off.
    Seems a bit far-fetched, but it might hold some water.

    Got any links or book tips?
    Medieval Machine: The Industrial Revolution of the Middle Ages by Jean Gimpel

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    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Interesting, I will have to look into it further. Not really buying it straight off.
    Seems a bit far-fetched, but it might hold some water.

    Got any links or book tips?
    Just compare Gothic architecture with Islamic architecture, and you will see it.

    The Moorish builders were incapable to understand how a stone vault could be erected, or the technical advantages of the pointed arch, even if they used it (but only for aesthetic purposes). And furthermore, the Gothic Architects not only mastered stone architecture to its technical limits, but metal architecture as well (even if it is less known). It's only a pure expression of forces and how they defy gravity.

    Just check for instance a building so huge, and so incredibly complex like the Cathedral in Beauvais (the vaulting reaches 48.5 meters!), and tell me if you can find something that could stand the comparison in Cordoba.

    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #6
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Just compare Gothic architecture with Islamic architecture, and you will see it.

    The Moorish builders were incapable to understand how a stone vault could be erected, or the technical advantages of the pointed arch, even if they used it (but only for aesthetic purposes). And furthermore, the Gothic Architects not only mastered stone architecture to its technical limits, but metal architecture as well (even if it is less known). It's only a pure expression of forces and how they defy gravity.

    Just check for instance a building so huge, and so incredibly complex like the Cathedral in Beauvais (the vaulting reaches 48.5 meters!), and tell me if you can find something that could stand the comparison in Cordoba.

    Maybe that only proves that French architecture was superior.
    What about Astronomy? Physics? Medicine? Philosophy? Geography? Mathematics? Chemistry?
    Also, I wonder how common literacy was in Christian Europe at the time, compared to Andalusia and the rest of the Islamic world.
    It's kinda odd. We were better at fighting, but they were far more civilized.

    Here is a list of the inventions of the Islamic world:
    Inventions in medieval Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Even at a quick glance, one could clearly see that we were clearly the ignorant savages back then.
    Have you any idea how dangerous it was to be an intellectual in Paris at the time?
    The Spanish inquisition wasn't around, but the Catholic Church didn't like opposition in form of science, especially MUSLIM science.

    Of course there would be some anti-Islam nut who says they were never great.
    I don't claim they are great now, in fact I am not even fond of Islam myself.
    I just recognize what they've done for the world.
    They're sort of making that good part up with bad stuff right now, though.



    We are far away off topic.
    Now. Make a thread about this if you feel like it, don't continue it here.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #7
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    The Spanish inquisition wasn't around, but the Catholic Church didn't like opposition in form of science, especially MUSLIM science.
    You're quite wrong there Jesus.

  8. #8
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You're quite wrong there Jesus.
    Look, i'm not expecting you to like my views.
    I kinda like some aspects of the church, but its behavior back then is sort of inexcusable.

    Now, get on with the thread. This is off-topic.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  9. #9
    Sniffles
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    We're discussing Medieval Europe aren't we?

  10. #10
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    We're discussing Medieval Europe aren't we?
    It's not an open-ended discussion. This is about what you think you would have been back then.

    Besides, I have no hope of changing either of your opinions.
    You both have reasons to not like Islam.

    It's a natural cycle that there will be a lot of pie-throwing, and it makes your opinions sort of... Just opinions.
    Most historians say that Moorish Spain was more civilized than the rest of Europe, quite generally.

    I admit the part about architecture, and I will also point out that almost everything regarding warfare was superior in Christian Europe at the time.
    Also, regarding religion we were quite fanatical compared to the large extent of the Islamic world pre 1100.
    Of course tensions will rise if people of one religion invades Turkey, Egypt and Palestine slaughtering your people for the sake of God.
    Killing, torturing, raping, plundering, burning, forced baptizing and God knows what.

    I'm going to listen to those guys I called "historians in general" and not give a crap about clearly biased opinions.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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