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  1. #11
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post

    Here is a list of the inventions of the Islamic world:
    Inventions in medieval Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    This article is so false it's laughable.

    The Islamic world feels so humiliated today it desperately tries to prove they did "incredible things" during the past. But modern politics should not intermingle with the history of middle age.

    Almost 90% of the so-called "Islamic inventions" described in your article were in fact invented by the Romans, the Greeks or the Chinese and Indian civilizations. And even then, Greek scientists were far more skilled in astronomy, mathematics and sciences in general. In chemistry, yes, Muslim scholars made genuine discoveries. But that's all, or almost all.

    This article deals with religion and politics but NOT with real science. It tries to sell an ideology at the price of enormous historical falacies.

    When I see they even have an article about the so-called "Muslim Agricultural Revolution", it's so ridiculous it could make me feel sad. As a matter of fact, Arab conquerors had strictly NO notions of agriculture, and they destroyed the land and the landscapes so effectively you can see the scars even today. It was a complete disaster. For instance, they managed to turn the most productive and urbanized area of the Roman empire (the Provincia Africa) into a semi-desert.

    What they did was to borrow and export some techniques and plants from the Persian civilization... and that's all.




    Even at a quick glance, one could clearly see that we were clearly the ignorant savages back then.
    It depends WHEN.

    If you say around 800 AD or 900 AD, then I will say yes. Yes, we would have been the "savages".

    But since you say 1300 AD, well, it's a completely different situation.

    Have you any idea how dangerous it was to be an intellectual in Paris at the time?
    By 1300 AD, it would have been far less dangerous than being an intellectual in the Muslim world. It's a no brainer.

    In 1300 AD, Averroism was taught at the Sorbonne, when on the other hand, the books of Averroes, Avicenne or Ibn Arabi were burned in public in Cordoba.

    The Spanish inquisition wasn't around, but the Catholic Church didn't like opposition in form of science, especially MUSLIM science.
    You're making projections. There was no such a thing as "muslim science" then.

    And the oppositions between the Catholic church and science became clear only after 1500 AD. So you're making lot of anachronisms.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #12
    Sniffles
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    YLJ I actually provided a link to one scholar's work on this field. I can also point to the work of Michael Grant and David C. Lindberg, two noted historians of science as well. The scientific and technical achievements of Medieval Europe have been recognized by scholars for at least a half century now.

  3. #13
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Sigh. Moderators, can you please split this off topic discussion about "the grandiose Islamic failure" from the thread and move it elsewhere?
    The graveyard, preferably, as it cannot be called anything even near serious anymore.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This article is so false it's laughable.

    The Islamic world feels so humiliated today it desperately tries to prove they did "incredible things" during the past. But modern politics should not intermingle with the history of middle age.

    Almost 90% of the so-called "Islamic inventions" described in your article were in fact invented by the Romans, the Greeks or the Chinese and Indian civilizations. And even then, Greek scientists were far more skilled in astronomy, mathematics and sciences in general. In chemistry, yes, Muslim scholars made genuine discoveries. But that's all, or almost all.

    This article deals with religion and politics but NOT with real science. It tries to sell an ideology at the price of enormous historical falacies.

    When I see they even have an article about the so-called "Muslim Agricultural Revolution", it's so ridiculous it could make me feel sad. As a matter of fact, Arab conquerors had strictly NO notions of agriculture, and they destroyed the land and the landscapes so effectively you can see the scars even today. It was a complete disaster. For instance, they managed to turn the most productive and urbanized area of the Roman empire (the Provincia Africa) into a semi-desert.

    What they did was to borrow and export some techniques and plants from the Persian civilization... and that's all.






    It depends WHEN.

    If you say around 800 AD or 900 AD, then I will say yes. Yes, we would have been the "savages".

    But since you say 1300 AD, well, it's a completely different situation.



    By 1300 AD, it would have been far less dangerous than being an intellectual in the Muslim world. It's a no brainer.

    In 1300 AD, Averroism was taught at the Sorbonne, when on the other hand, the books of Averroes, Avicenne or Ibn Arabi were burned in public in Cordoba.



    You're making projections. There was no such a thing as "muslim science" then.

    And the oppositions between the Catholic church and science became clear only after 1500 AD. So you're making lot of anachronisms.
    If I'm not mistaken, the Islamic world still upheld Geocentric theories well into the 19th century, as opposed to the West.

    And much of the work done in the Islamic was actually done by Arab Christians. I believe Avicenna and Averroes as well(dont know off hand) were educated by Christian scribes.

  5. #15
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I'm going to listen to those guys I called "historians in general" and not give a crap about clearly biased opinions.
    Please, do it, because you're making lot of confusions and anachronisms.

    Once again, your thread is called "the year is 1300".

    If it was called "the year is 800", then you could have been more correct, and I would have agreed with your answer.

    ---

    In the year 800, yes, most historians will say that the Muslim world was "more civilized" than Western Europe. That would have been quite obvious, exactly like you said (even if I would have prefered Baghdad to Cordoba, but it's not in Europe).

    But in the year 1300... well... that's five centuries later. And just to give you an hint, the Roman Empire collaped in less time.

    As a matter of fact, the majority of the Muslim world just froze shortly after 1000 AD and the advent of Sunni Islam, while the rest of the world continued to progress at a fast pace. Only Shia lands continued to maintain a tradition of intellectual excellence despite being oppressed by their Sunni brothers, and that's all.

    Just learn your history.

    And yes, please, read more historians.
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  6. #16
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Anachronisms and confusions my ass.
    Well, it's obvious that we disagree, at least.
    I can encourage you to read more as well, to be quite honest.

    Now, get the hell out of my thread and continue this after the thread is split.
    As I have said numerous times, we are off topic.
    Not nice to ruin a perfectly harmless and pleasant thread with anti-Islam Pie throwing Grand Slam.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #17
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post

    And much of the work done in the Islamic was actually done by Arab Christians. I believe Avicenna and Averroes as well(dont know off hand) were educated by Christian scribes.
    No, that's not true.

    But what's interesting is that both Ibn Sinna and Ibn Rushd would have been considered as dangerous heretics by the large muslim majority (Sunni). And this explains more than everything why their works were ostracized.

    The vast majority of Muslim intellectuals (even during the Golden age) were either Shia, heretics, or atheists. And they had to move frequently.

    For instance Razi, the greatest doctor of Baghdad and inspirator of Spinoza, was assaulted several times by fanatics because he claimed the Quran to be a fairytale. Fortunately for him, he was the best doctor of his epoch, and the Caliphe was worried about his own health (hence he protected him).

    But even then, many muslim intellectuals often made tremendous mistakes compared to their Greek, Persian and Indian predecessors. Since you mention this anecdote, a brilliant mind like Al Biruni did not understand the demonstrations of Eratosthenes and Aryabhata, even if he mentioned them several times. He was stuck in a Geocentric universe.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #18
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Anachronisms and confusions my ass.
    Well, it's obvious that we disagree, at least.
    I can encourage you to read more as well, to be quite honest.

    Now, get the hell out of my thread and continue this after the thread is split.
    As I have said numerous times, we are off topic.
    Not nice to ruin a perfectly harmless and pleasant thread with anti-Islam Pie throwing Grand Slam.
    I'm sorry, but you ruined your thread yourself.

    Should you have read more and not confused two different eras, two different centuries, then our debate might have taken another direction.

    You both have reasons to not like Islam.
    Please, could you tell me why? -I'd be curious-
    And furthermore, what kind of Islam are you referring to?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #19
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    It's funny how people stick to their ethnicity/culture/country/language/roots

    I'd like to be Moorish or secularized Spanish if I lived back then. Just because it's comfortable.
    I mean, the moors were cleanly, fairly secular, highly standing in science...
    Being an innkeeper in Crdoba was probably more grandiose than being the King of France.
    At least less odor, ignorance and faulty medical practice
    Oh, and running water...
    Well, Venice was at its apex during the XIVth century, thus I felt obligated to choose it. Probably if the question was centered 2 centuries past or before, I would have preferred islamic europe, yeah.
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  10. #20
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    It's funny how people stick to their ethnicity/culture/country/language/roots

    I'd like to be Moorish or secularized Spanish if I lived back then. Just because it's comfortable.
    I mean, the moors were cleanly, fairly secular, highly standing in science...
    Being an innkeeper in Crdoba was probably more grandiose than being the King of France.
    At least less odor, ignorance and faulty medical practice
    Oh, and running water...
    Actually, that's what I thought too - that Moorish/Islamic cities were far cleaner and better organized - basically better examples of city planning. However, when I was in Andalucia studying Spanish I got to visit (or at least read about) a few Moorish/Christian/Castilian influenced buildings. Maybe it is revisionist history but the brochure I read at one such fortress/castle/church etc. was that the original Moorish architecture made for cramped working/living spaces and it was Christian European influence that made the passageways larger and brighter and encouraged more hygenic conditions. Same for many coastal cities in Andalucia - the Moors made the streets and buidlings too cramped and too dark and it was a Christian/European influence to make streets wider, let more light in, etc. But then, I did take it with a grain of salt where I was getting the info from so

    I agree the Moors had superior medical and scientific knowledge.
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