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  1. #31
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    isn't going to think he got away with it just because there's still one guy who'll sometimes let him come in for coffee and a ham sandwich, listen to him bitching and complaining and then gently explain to him that he's being a jerk.
    No, perhaps not... but the point is that his choices destroyed a lot of lives... If you had advance notice of his actions and you stood by him, I do believe that you chose to be associated to it. That is to say that if a friend came to me saying he had done this and that - I'd probably try to help him through it. If a friend came over after this, after doing it again and again - then I wouldn't be there for him. It'd be a "we've talked about this before - don't do it, and if you do, consider me lost as well".

    That instills a cost before it gets that far, hopefully. If the whole thing blows up the first time, I'd support him through it (it is his behaviour not the ramifications that decide if a friendship is worth having).

    Either way, it's worked in the past, where being the ONE person who doesn't turn them away, amidst a sea of judgers and back-turners, I've been able to reach a person and sorta help rehabilitate them, where if I'd turned on them as well, they'd have just got worse or drunk/drugged themselves to death, or jail.
    I agree with this and I can see where you are coming from. I think we probably need a combination of both. I, however, firmly fall in the responsibility of action - I do help, but I help under the assumption the person is inherently not like their bad behaviour. Just as I do not seek out friends that are bad for me, I do not keep friends that are bad for me.

  2. #32
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Protean, sometimes I wish I could have the black and white you clearly have, and stick to it. I see that it could've gotten me out of quite a bit of mess in my life.

    I see your distinction between a one-off genuine mistake vs a carrying on, and how silence is a condonement of the act.

    As an aside. That's something I like about this place. It lets me question and hear from others, a different way of being / living, since we're all in different places & situations, but there are a fair bit of universal themes, for want of a better word. And maybe adopting some of the better ideas here too.


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    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #33
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    In all seriousness, can someone please explain to me where the gray exists in this particular situation? I'm all about context; my favorite phrase to say to people is "Well, it depends," but I truly don't see where it depends is a justification here.

    I want everyone to understand that I sincerely am not understanding how people are saying this is just a small flaw, a bump in the road in the course of a friendship. What must a friend do for you to terminate the friendship? I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right, I'm just not seeing any alternative conclusions that can be drawn.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #34
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What must a friend do for you to terminate the friendship?
    I'd like to know that to. Does anyone have a line they know cannot be crossed? Is the line simply different or would you let them do anything and watch the whole time?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    In all seriousness, can someone please explain to me where the gray exists in this particular situation? I'm all about context; my favorite phrase to say to people is "Well, it depends," but I truly don't see where it depends is a justification here.

    I want everyone to understand that I sincerely am not understanding how people are saying this is just a small flaw, a bump in the road in the course of a friendship. What must a friend do for you to terminate the friendship? I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right, I'm just not seeing any alternative conclusions that can be drawn.

    Ok, I can't speak for the rest, but the gray came from me because I'd misunderstood your objection originally to the friend as being her falling for the married guy, when you're objecting to her having acted on those feelings continuously.

    So to answer your question, in this context I'd be more inclined to still be a friend and help her work through it if it is the former, as things of the heart are not easy. But yes, if it was the latter, and she wilfully continues hurting others by her actions, I'd reconsider. Meaning I'd reduce the closeness and trust a lot, but I may not completely cut off all associations - I'd have to hate someone to do that. Subterfuge/dishonesty in relationships is not something I could live with over the long term. Is this black and white enough from an NTP?

  6. #36
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    In all seriousness, can someone please explain to me where the gray exists in this particular situation? I'm all about context; my favorite phrase to say to people is "Well, it depends," but I truly don't see where it depends is a justification here.

    I want everyone to understand that I sincerely am not understanding how people are saying this is just a small flaw, a bump in the road in the course of a friendship. What must a friend do for you to terminate the friendship? I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right, I'm just not seeing any alternative conclusions that can be drawn.
    To me, it's really not a grey area. I also don't think it's a small flaw or a bump in the road. Ultimately, though, it isn't my business. Isn't it possible to disapprove, even strongly, without cutting off contact entirely? If the friend can't handle the disapproval, it could certainly be the end. If she insisted that I support her choice or else, it wouldn't be me ending the friendship.

    I hate to be all churchy, but this is how my particular little branch of Christianity handles this kind of thing (which probably makes me no better than BW's friend in his estimation, but I think it's chicken/egg- I chose that faith because it coincided with my self-formed values, not because I needed a source of values). "I won't say that I approve, and if it were up to me you wouldn't be doing this, but it's not, and that's on you. Yeah, you should totally stop- now, let's talk about something else." And then, hope (maybe even against all hope) that being loved despite the behavior might have some impact on them, if not now, maybe someday. If the association detracts from my attention to my own family, then I might have to regretfully back off from the friend.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #37
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To me, it's really not a grey area. I also don't think it's a small flaw or a bump in the road. Ultimately, though, it isn't my business. Isn't it possible to disapprove, even strongly, without cutting off contact entirely? If the friend can't handle the disapproval, it could certainly be the end. If she insisted that I support her choice or else, it wouldn't be me ending the friendship...
    So there's nothing a friend could do that would make you end the friendship? I'm feeling very obtuse that I don't see what needs to happen in order for a friendship to end. If this were a marriage and a partner was abusive would you say that was grounds to terminate the marriage? If you were a friend of the abusive spouse, you wouldn't end your friendship with them? It's really none of your business how your friends conduct themselves?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #38
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So there's nothing a friend could do that would make you end the friendship? I'm feeling very obtuse that I don't see what needs to happen in order for a friendship to end. If this were a marriage and a partner was abusive would you say that was grounds to terminate the marriage? If you were a friend of the abusive spouse, you wouldn't end your friendship with them? It's really none of your business how your friends conduct themselves?
    If a friend is breaking laws by assaulting people, I'll report them. I'd even testify against them. Then they probably won't want to continue being MY friend, so it would be moot. But no, like I said before, if the person's flaws completely overshadow whatever good I think they have in them, then I can't respect them at all and there's no sense continuing the friendship unless they change their ways.

    I have a feeling that when the rubber meets the road we're actually talking about the same thing but it's translating into language differently for each of us.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #39
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hi ProteanMix, thanks for sticking to your guns on this.

    Having read through (you know, my pan and scan) most of the responses, I think people are still a little stuck on the definition of 'personal' vs 'group' value. Because that is a grey area. There is the obvious overlap but then there's the question of what came first, how much does culture affect your 'personal' values, and how much are you invested in group harmony and etc. etc.

    So far, I have not heard ANYONE say that they would ostracize a friend or cut someone off just because they are 'bad' or 'wrong' in SOCIETY'S eyes.
    They would do it if someone became a 'bad invesment' or 'bad news' in their eyes.

    What I got from Bluewing's original post (and one or two responses) seemed more a distaste for people he sees as weak-minded or conformist who swallow whole and spit out standards instead of thinking for themselves. It stems from laziness, cowardice, and selfishness and it can do a lot of harm under the comfort and sheen of conformity. So, I get it.

    BUT --

    I don't think you should assume just because someone has clearly delineated values and knows exactly what they think and want to do in these situations or that they are unapologetic about saying 'Off With Their Heads!' i.e. cut the friendship (like ProteanMix) that they aren'tthinking for themselves.

    Sure, you could criticize such people as being rigid or harsh (hahaha, nothing personal Protean) in the application of their values, BUT that has nothing to do with where the values originate from.

    Also, in response to Substitute's post, I think society necessarily functions with a few individuals who come to the support or aid of the underdogs, the unpopular, and the outcasts. It's society's built-in welfare/social work system (no it's not perfect, or applied evenly, or helps everyone). And I think a lot of people have at least 1 friend or 1 acquaintance who is an underdog who they are willing to go to bat for.

    I do detect a tone of judgement in your post for everyone else who 'turned their backs'.

    My response is I have no idea what your actual situations have been, but just like I don't necessarily condemn people for transgressions 'against social norms' I also don't necessarily feel like it's my responsibility to be their personal champion or savior. Especially if I feel this person has hurt me personally or are not trustworthy. I don't consider that turning my back on someone, but just leaving them alone to be who they are.

    But really, in response to the original question at hand (which I kinda forget, but I guess folks are now talking about what it would take to cut off a friend and why) -- when it comes down to it, I think everyone follows their gut and does what 'feels' right to them. Even if you word this as doing what "is" right or is the 'rational thing' to do.

    I also think the question of cutting folks off enters the realm of 'self-preservation' -- and that's where folks get very instinctual and knee-jerk in their decisions.

  10. #40
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Is it possible that some of this might be J/P oriented? I am still not sure which one I am, but I think in this regard I'm probably more P than J. IMO it's really not necessary to decree a friendship over under these kinds of circumstances- it's either going to happen organically or it's not, and if it doesn't it could rekindle later if circumstances change. If I no longer feel the friendly feelings, and avoid the person's company because they make me uncomfortable, then the friendship is de facto over, but not because I made the decision for it to be, yknow?

    Edit: this was an incomplete thought. I meant to follow through and say that the J approach which is equally valid but different from the P approach, could be to make the decision "official" pending further development. Then, if the friend comes around later, they might declare the friendship "on" again. The underlying values of the J and the P in question might be similar, but what they call "ending the friendship" might differ.

    Am I making any sense at all here or just pulling rabbits out of asses?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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