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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'll agree with Proteanmix on this. If someone is consistently and unrepentantly engaging in behavior that harms others I'm going to have a problem with that. Those consistent behaviors are who they are. Anyone can screw up and do something and be sorry for it, so that is not the end of the world. Someone who hurts people and doesn't care as a normal part of their life is someone who eventually is probably not going to make an exception for me. Plus respect is an important part of friendship for me and I can't respect that.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    If someone is ostracized the minute they don't conform to expected values, then what have they left to lose? What motive do they have to stop the bad behaviour, if, once they've done it once, they're forever judged? I understand the viewpoints of cafe and proteanmix, but personally I've always tried to be for these people "the one person who doesn't give up on them" and "the one person who always forgives" - but that hasn't meant letting them get away with it or have it easy. The way I see it, someone's got to have someone left to believe in them, when they've lost all their own self belief/respect. Otherwise they'll never get it back again.

    By the way, I know 3 ENTJ's and an ESTJ who are not like that at all. They're very forgiving people. And along with an ISTJ, they're the only ones who stuck with me through my transition out of all my previous friends - despite it going against their religious beliefs (in two cases), leading to them having to totally change the way they approach their faith.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If someone is ostracized the minute they don't conform to expected values, then what have they left to lose?
    Hmm, I'd say the opposite is true too... that is, if knowing that there won't be an impact, the cost becomes lower, encouraging that behaviour.

    Not agreeing with someone for a single act isn't, to me, grounds for walking away. However, if someone shows repeated behaviour that I don't approve of, or justification of behaviour I don't believe of (refusal to change)... then I do walk away. I think that puts it in the middle of the two extremes - forgiving all and forgiving nothing... instead, forgive single exceptions, don't forgive repetitive behaviour.

  4. #24
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Recently, I've had a talk with a friend of whose values I cannot approve. She claimed that we should exclude all of those who are thieves, liars, adulterers..etc..from our company...

    And brought around an example of how she just severed ties with an INFP because she was seeing a married man.

    I asked her, does this show that the INFP would be incompetent as a friend? Because she did this, does this mean she would mistreat you.

    And she answered..this is where my Fe kicks in over Fi...would you be friends with a liar? A thief? An adulterer..?

    I answered something along those lines..you EJs have this 'no brainer' approach to ethics..if someone has this or that quality they have to be treated in that particular fashion. Almost like a rule of thumb.

    That is not really thinking, that is applying the thoughts of others. I, for my part would not look at those pesky labels like 'liar, thief..' and so on..and assess the matter as a thing in itself.

    In the end, she had nothing to say but simply that because of one's status as an adulterer..they are unfit for 'friendship'...

    I dont think that individuals like this particular EJ have any kind of personal values at all. They do not look at the current situation, they merely follow instructions on how to treat them. One size fits all, or one rule applies to all circumstances that are depicted in the statement. Here it gets to the point where it is not about personal values any more, but simply about the rules insisting on putting on an image of adherence to particular values.

    Appears to me that such an attitude is prevalent in our society over that favoring genuine contemplation of personal values (akin to Fi). What I think we need is not a set of rules on how we should feel and what we should do, but an attitude that leads us to concoct values of our own.

    Or in other words, we should not allow any proposition within the realm of our maxims unless we first have thought it through for ourselves and decided for that to be congenial.

    If we do otherwise, can we earnestly say that our principles have substance if they are but a mirror image of the principles our group maintains? Can we really claim those as our *personal* values?
    I think this is one of those cases where how a TP acts (especially an NTP) is considerably different from an FJ. Fe is very good at caring about people and bonding with them, where Ti is mostly apathetic in that regard. The flip side of that is that FJ's tend to be a lot more impressionable toward their friends than TP's.

    My wife (an INFJ) and I had a situation a few years ago involving my friends. Their values were pretty different from ours, and she assumed because I liked to associate with them that I agreed with their values and approved of what they did. This was actually not true at all, but from this situation we learned some things about each other and friendship.

    The first thing we learned is that I have little to no standards. I am talking about friendship specifically. I can basically befriend anyone regardless of how different they are, and regardless of how much I respect/admire them. My long term friends tend to be the people who invest in me, and this is really what I need most from friends anyway because my unfocused nature makes it hard for me to keep long term friends (unfocused emotionally that is).

    The second thing we learned is that she has fairly high standards for friendship. She is more proactive about who she befriends, and it tends to be with people who she trusts, admires, respects, etc.... Her view towards friendship tends to be something more like mutual self-actualization. It's important for her to have friends that she can count on and also help to make her a better person (and vice versa). On the other hand she tends to be fairly impressionable, so she doesn't like to associate with people who have values significantly different from her own. Additionally these people tend to frustrate her and exhaust her emotionally.

    So it's easy to see that a FJ's method of choosing friends needs to be quite different from the TP method. While the TP style tends to be less judgemental, the FJ style is more proactive. There are certainly strengths to both styles. Additionally, I believe that because of our experience I help to make her less judgemental, while she helps to make me more proactive.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, I'd say the opposite is true too... that is, if knowing that there won't be an impact, the cost becomes lower, encouraging that behaviour.

    Not agreeing with someone for a single act isn't, to me, grounds for walking away. However, if someone shows repeated behaviour that I don't approve of, or justification of behaviour I don't believe of (refusal to change)... then I do walk away. I think that puts it in the middle of the two extremes - forgiving all and forgiving nothing... instead, forgive single exceptions, don't forgive repetitive behaviour.
    Yeah, as I said, I see that point. But I also see myself and my actions in the context of others'. No person functions in their life with only one other person in it - at least, none that I've known (and I know Dave! lol). I figure there are always plenty of people who will take that POV you and others describe. There being ONE person (and that person being me) who doesn't, isn't going to create an impression with them of 'getting away with it'. Someone who loses his wife, kids, home, job, friends etc through being a jerk, isn't going to think he got away with it just because there's still one guy who'll sometimes let him come in for coffee and a ham sandwich, listen to him bitching and complaining and then gently explain to him that he's being a jerk.

    There has to be someone left who will explain the others' actions and choices to them, since being a person like that obviously means that they have a serious problem with understanding others' viewpoints, or the consequences of their actions, or with putting their actions in context of the actions of others, seeing the chains of events and understanding where what they did led to someone 'divorcing' from them, so to speak, and why. If a person has a mental block on these things then more people doing it to them won't change them - it'll just make them worse. Obviously they're carrying an erroneous interpretation of why it is that people turn their backs on them; they have a faulty decision making circuit, so to speak; they JUST DON'T GET IT - not only that they're hurting others, but how this rebounds on them. There has to be someone still left who will always explain it to them, patiently and non-judgementally.

    Either way, it's worked in the past, where being the ONE person who doesn't turn them away, amidst a sea of judgers and back-turners, I've been able to reach a person and sorta help rehabilitate them, where if I'd turned on them as well, they'd have just got worse or drunk/drugged themselves to death, or jail.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Either way, it's worked in the past, where being the ONE person who doesn't turn them away, amidst a sea of judgers and back-turners, I've been able to reach a person and sorta help rehabilitate them, where if I'd turned on them as well, they'd have just got worse or drunk/drugged themselves to death, or jail.
    Allow me once again to take this out of the abstract and put it on the ground.

    In my situation, soon after my friend told me about her relationship, she'd call and tell me, "Oh, blank and I had an argument" or "I want to get blank a present, what should I get him?" or "Blank wants to meet you." Was I supposed to suspend what I think is right to say all the things I would say under normal circumstances? It was awkward. I tried for a few months to be as neutral as I could towards the situation, but I felt like I even my silence condoned their relationship. People talk about having values but it seems like a meaningless word when you really have to test them.

    If your values tell you support your friend no matter what they do, then that's fine. I don't have that kind of blind allegiance to my friends. I'm not a yes woman. If my friend does something that is clearly wrong, I tell them so. They do the same thing to me when I'm wrong, which is rare but occasionally happens. It's not about kicking someone when they're down. I've had friends do incredibly stupid things and everyone had forsaken and I stayed there with them. But when someone is unrepentant about something and don't even acknowledge that they are in error, it sends up all types of signals to me.

    People have to decide what's right for them. If this isn't a deal breaker as far as friendships are concerned and it works for you continue as you have. This type of thing doesn't work for me. And as I said before, the friendship isn't dead and decomposed. But I do know that I won't ever view her the same way again.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Allow me once again to take this out of the abstract and put it on the ground.

    In my situation, soon after my friend told me about her relationship, she'd call and tell me, "Oh, blank and I had an argument" or "I want to get blank a present, what should I get him?" or "Blank wants to meet you." Was I supposed to suspend what I think is right to say all the things I would say under normal circumstances? It was awkward. I tried for a few months to be as neutral as I could towards the situation, but I felt like I even my silence condoned their relationship. People talk about having values but it seems like a meaningless word when you really have to test them.

    If your values tell you support your friend no matter what they do, then that's fine. I don't have that kind of blind allegiance to my friends. I'm not a yes woman. If my friend does something that is clearly wrong, I tell them so. They do the same thing to me when I'm wrong, which is rare but occasionally happens. It's not about kicking someone when they're down. I've had friends do incredibly stupid things and everyone had forsaken and I stayed there with them. But when someone is unrepentant about something and don't even acknowledge that they are in error, it sends up all types of signals to me.

    People have to decide what's right for them. If this isn't a deal breaker as far as friendships are concerned and it works for you continue as you have. This type of thing doesn't work for me. And as I said before, the friendship isn't dead and decomposed. But I do know that I won't ever view her the same way again.
    I don't think anyone is saying that you have to pretend you approve of the behavior. If a friend began to do things that I think are wrong, I would feel free to tell them, as you do. If they continued to act as if I were neutral or supportive, I'd feel no compulsion to pretend to approve. And if it became an issue, I'd be glad to lay down some ground rules- I love you, but we can't talk about this. So, if you ask me for advice, be prepared to get it, and if you don't like what I have to say, then let's just not talk about this topic anymore.

    I do think there is more to people than their foibles, even if their foibles are pretty big. And usually it's not my job to cure them of their foibles, although I will speak my mind. If I can continue the friendship and work around the foibles, so be it. But, as you say, it's going to inform how we interact. I wouldn't ask a friend who is having an affair for marital advice, for example. If their foibles begin to outweigh their goodness to the degree that I can no longer respect any part of them, then the friendship is probably over.
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  8. #28
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    It would depend on how good of a friend they were actually. If it were a person who I really considered a close friend, I would probably ask them what the fuck they were thinking, but I wouldn't stop being friends with them. Close friends are hard to come by!

    I've been cheated on, so I know that it sucks- I've also been the other woman without knowing it, so I can see both of those sides a lot better than I can knowingly cheating on someone. I remained friends with a girl who was cheating on her fiance for a while though- until she screwed me over.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I don't think it's really black and white, whether to keep the friend or not. It depends on the situation - the friend's rationale, state of mind, intentions, whether there was malice, the other people involved, etc etc.

    It would take a lot to make me outright "dump" a friend for any reason (it's never happened), but any number of things would make me think differently of them, which would be likely to lead me to treat them differently, maybe resulting in us drifting apart.

    I don't really take an active role in being friends with people. We spend time and share things to the degree that both people are comfortable, and if one of us drifts off, so be it. My own personal values affect how I view people and get along with them, but not who I directly 'choose' to be friends with. Something like cheating would almost certainly make me lose respect for someone though.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Allow me once again to take this out of the abstract and put it on the ground.

    In my situation, soon after my friend told me about her relationship, she'd call and tell me, "Oh, blank and I had an argument" or "I want to get blank a present, what should I get him?" or "Blank wants to meet you." Was I supposed to suspend what I think is right to say all the things I would say under normal circumstances? It was awkward. I tried for a few months to be as neutral as I could towards the situation, but I felt like I even my silence condoned their relationship. People talk about having values but it seems like a meaningless word when you really have to test them.

    If your values tell you support your friend no matter what they do, then that's fine. I don't have that kind of blind allegiance to my friends. I'm not a yes woman. If my friend does something that is clearly wrong, I tell them so. They do the same thing to me when I'm wrong, which is rare but occasionally happens. It's not about kicking someone when they're down. I've had friends do incredibly stupid things and everyone had forsaken and I stayed there with them. But when someone is unrepentant about something and don't even acknowledge that they are in error, it sends up all types of signals to me.

    People have to decide what's right for them. If this isn't a deal breaker as far as friendships are concerned and it works for you continue as you have. This type of thing doesn't work for me. And as I said before, the friendship isn't dead and decomposed. But I do know that I won't ever view her the same way again.
    Protean, sometimes I wish I could have the black and white you clearly have, and stick to it. I see that it could've gotten me out of quite a bit of mess in my life.

    I see your distinction between a one-off genuine mistake vs a carrying on, and how silence is a condonement of the act.

    As an aside. That's something I like about this place. It lets me question and hear from others, a different way of being / living, since we're all in different places & situations, but there are a fair bit of universal themes, for want of a better word. And maybe adopting some of the better ideas here too.

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