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  1. #41
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    No, not at all. It's contestable, infact stating it's my opinion is saying "this is contestable" because it is just a subjective, personal, opinion.

    If I read "It's just my opinion" I see openess, the reaction to JMO is different for everyone, a lesson I just learned today.
    Where I come from, opinions are uncontestable because they cannot be wrong in any verifiable sense, or at least that's the idea, because they have left the objective arena and entered the realm of the subjective, where they cannot be criticized on any grounds. It's an attempt to make a [2 + 2 = 5] statement into a [blue is my favorite color] statement. When someone says "I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours", it's effectively the same as saying "don't tell me I'm wrong". If you say it's you're opinion that 2 +2 = 5, and you are entitled to your opinon, that means I cannot take your opinion away from you, which is to say I can't tell you that 2 + 2 =/= 5.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #42
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What's wrong with a view that can't be questioned?
    Precisely.

    That phrase has always seem out-of-bounds to me. As you mentioned, it offers superficial insulation from honest, external probing of the identity of one's argument. What's more, it creates a position that is inherently unfalsifiable; the phrase itself has no meaning and does nothing to advance the productive flow of discussion.

    No meaning at all. A frustrating sidetrack. A compromise to artificially disrupt the current of debate.

  3. #43
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Where I come from, opinions are uncontestable because they cannot be wrong in any verifiable sense, or at least that's the idea, because they have left the objective arena and entered the realm of the subjective, where they cannot be criticized on any grounds. It's an attempt to make a [2 + 2 = 5] statement into a [blue is my favorite color] statement. When someone says "I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours", it's effectively the same as saying "don't tell me I'm wrong". If you say it's you're opinion that 2 +2 = 5, and you are entitled to your opinon, that means I cannot take your opinion away from you, which is to say I can't tell you that 2 + 2 =/= 5.

    Yes, but who is wrong and who is right? Can that ever be identified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Precisely.

    That phrase has always seem out-of-bounds to me. As you mentioned, it offers superficial insulation from honest, external probing of the identity of one's argument. What's more, it creates a position that is inherently unfalsifiable; the phrase itself has no meaning and does nothing to advance the flow of discussion.

    No meaning at all. A frustrating sidetrack. A compromise to artificially disrupt the current of debate.
    But not if used in an Fe way. Only if used to cave in or admit one is pulling uncorroborated evidence out of one's ass (as protean stated), in the face of a stronger arguement.


    There is needing to be Right and there is collective Truth.

    I will try to be succinct. I learned around age 10 I could use my Fe to coerce my isfp sister. But I also learned if I did this, she would succumb to my power and would not be herself. I wanted her to be herself more than I wanted her to do what I thought was best. So, I learned how to be accomodating to her so she would come forth and be fully who she is.

    I perceive NTs (and SW might be the epitome of this ) as being seekers of hardcore logic and intellectual purity, sometimes at the cost of diplomacy (not SW) or allowing for other types to speak their own truth, as they see it or feel it. Perhaps there was a time in our history where the pure, cold logic of NTs was necessary to turn the cogs of government, or where it is still perceived to be the best (courtroom?) model of finding truth, and I intuit a slight bias, even subconsciously, toward this way of thinking.

    But what about the importance of an NF's ideal utopianism?
    Or an SJ's sustainable dependability?
    Or an SP's practical resourcefulness?

    These are all aspects of a well-functioning system, or necessary for attaining Truth. By insisting on one way of arguing--the NT way--you are perhaps stifling, even inadvertantly, someone else's opinion who may not be as dogmatic as you, or as logical as you. The phrase "in my opinion" (and others like it) is one way that we bridge these communication gaps in an effort to try and welcome everyone's opinion with open and honest discussion in an effort to seek true collective truth.

    JMO.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  4. #44
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Yes, but who is wrong and who is right? Can that ever be identified?
    Oh, come now. Do you really want me to give you the exceedingly elaborate yet totally obvious answer to this? I really considered just leaving my post as "yes".
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #45
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So, how would one prevent himself from being attacked for the factual baselessness of his opinion? Perhaps adding something akin to "This is speculative" would be a more viable and less ambiguous option? Basically, what I want to convey is that my "idea" hasn't been proven and/or hasn't being analyzed in full detail before being uttered; I want to modulate the impact of my "opinion".
    Yes, this is speculative is more adequate in this case. There you are making a bold claim that you have a certain idea of how the world is and you put a period there. Here you aren't discouraging others from questioning your views. However, if you say it is just your opinion you are saying that this is no more than a personal intuition you have and therefore it is not subject to debate.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #46
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Oh, come now. Do you really want me to give you the exceedingly elaborate yet totally obvious answer to this? I really considered just leaving my post as "yes".
    NO MAGIC!! plz!

    totally rhetorical, yeh.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #47
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Where I come from, opinions are uncontestable because they cannot be wrong in any verifiable sense, or at least that's the idea, because they have left the objective arena and entered the realm of the subjective, where they cannot be criticized on any grounds.
    To you maybe, to me an opinion is even more open to debate. It's not always down to being subjective, and until that becomes apparant, I assume an opinion is changeable.

    If someone says in my opinion star trek is better than star wars, I would know it was subjective but that wouldn't stop me from trying to make my case as to why star wars is better. Not until I realised they were staying firm and couldn't be convinced otherwise.


    It's an attempt to make a [2 + 2 = 5] statement into a [blue is my favorite color] statement. When someone says "I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours", it's effectively the same as saying "don't tell me I'm wrong". If you say it's you're opinion that 2 +2 = 5, and you are entitled to your opinon, that means I cannot take your opinion away from you, which is to say I can't tell you that 2 + 2 =/= 5.

    If I had said those exact words that would be me saying I am staying firm with my opinion, merely uttering that it is "just my opinion" on the other hand, is not my way of saying the same thing.


    It's a short way of saying, "hey, I could be totally wrong here, open to suggestions why I am".
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  8. #48
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Yes, but who is wrong and who is right? Can that ever be identified?



    But not if used in an Fe way. Only if used to cave in or admit one is pulling uncorroborated evidence out of one's ass (as protean stated), in the face of a stronger arguement.


    There is needing to be Right and there is collective Truth.

    I will try to be succinct. I learned around age 10 I could use my Fe to coerce my isfp sister. But I also learned if I did this, she would succumb to my power and would not be herself. I wanted her to be herself more than I wanted her to do what I thought was best. So, I learned how to be accomodating to her so she would come forth and be fully who she is.

    I perceive NTs (and SW might be the epitome of this ) as being seekers of hardcore logic and intellectual purity, sometimes at the cost of diplomacy (not SW) or allowing for other types to speak their own truth, as they see it or feel it. Perhaps there was a time in our history where the pure, cold logic of NTs was necessary to turn the cogs of government, or where it is still perceived to be the best (courtroom?) model of finding truth, and I intuit a slight bias, even subconsciously, toward this way of thinking.


    These are all aspects of a well-functioning system, or necessary for attaining Truth. By insisting on one way of arguing--the NT way--you are perhaps stifling, even inadvertantly, someone else's opinion who may not be as dogmatic as you, or as logical as you. The phrase "in my opinion" (and others like it) is one way that we bridge these communication gaps in an effort to try and welcome everyone's opinion with open and honest discussion in an effort to seek true collective truth.

    JMO.
    You've got it backwards. Having the 'its just my opinion' rhetoric leads people to assume that there is some view that people have that shouldn't be questioned. If you question them it appears as if you're challenging them and they clearly don't want to be challenged when they say its only my opinion! Diplomacy will flourish in a ruthlessly critical regime as opinions will be open to challenge. As a result of this, it shall be possible to discover where all parties stand and what solution best suits the situation. This is impossible in a scenario where people are afraid to challenge each other because somebody keeps on claiming that their proposition is 'just an opinion'.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    But what about the importance of an NF's ideal utopianism?
    Or an SJ's sustainable dependability?
    Or an SP's practical resourcefulness?
    All of that is fine, they all should be free to voice their views regardless of whether or not they agree with each other. Not all of their ideals may be implemented or actualized, yet this is inevitable and is no excuse to create a social regime where people don't take responsibility for their claims or refuse to tolerate disagreements.

    In this case diplomacy would only possible if all people involved share the same views or supress their disagreements. In a small community this may work, yet in the larger ones there is a need for people to voice their disagreements as they all can't be ignored or made to conform to the mainstream view.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #49
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Haven't read the whole thread, but, my usage of it:

    (1) It is not to back out of a discussion or debate (aw, hell no!)

    (2) It is, however, to make sure I cover my ass in a discussion such that the other cannot counter with - well, prove this, when that specific point in the discussion wasn't supposed to be up for contention.

    As such, statements that can be debated, I leave them be, while statements that I'm adding, because a tangent of thought came to mind, but, it struck me as intriguing and somehow relevant, nonetheless, I will qualify with "Just my opinion". I.e., don't waste your time or mine, by taking issue with that particular part of my response, tackle the rest. It's my way of directing the discussion towards a more fruitful and efficient endeavour.

    I do not use it to avoid my point being picked on. I use it to avoid both the responder and myself from spending time nit-picking subjective opinions and then debating that, or asking me to waste time justifying that, when there's other points I've offered that I actually want to put through the scrutiny of a debate, including being called on to justify.

    Everything can be potentially up for debate or discussion, but, not everything should be debated or discussed - given that we are subjected to limited time, interest and patience. Thus, it's helpful to have markers that navigate the direction of a debate or discussion to more productive ends.

  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It can also be a way of taking responsibility for understanding personal limits. When I read that phrase I think the person would probably back down more quickly if the idea is challenged than if they had not made that statement. It communicates that the person has woven together a conclusion based on certain fragments of experience and knowledge, but does not consider the statement a final conclusion. It sounds more like a place-holder conclusion until more information comes along. It can imply open-mindedness.

    People probably use the phrase for a variety of reasons. I would go ahead and challenge any statement regardless of that phrase, but just realize the other person will probably back down or not desire to defend the position if they do not consider it final or universal in its applications.
    Yes, it seems more to be a signifier of the (1) background of the opinion being presented and (2) acknowledgment that other experiences might differ and (3) thus lack of desire to argue, since the opinion might not be definitive.

    ... as opposed to some other opinions offered, where the offerer is willing and passionate about defending their POV at all costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    You've got it backwards. Having the 'its just my opinion' rhetoric leads people to assume that there is some view that people have that shouldn't be questioned. If you question them it appears as if you're challenging them and they clearly don't want to be challenged when they say its only my opinion! Diplomacy will flourish in a ruthlessly critical regime as opinions will be open to challenge. As a result of this, it shall be possible to discover where all parties stand and what solution best suits the situation. This is impossible in a scenario where people are afraid to challenge each other because somebody keeps on claiming that their proposition is 'just an opinion'.
    Why would you want to waste time challenging an opinion that the person is unable or unwilling to defend?

    Aren't they doing you a service by admitting up front their belief is not conclusive and thus doesn't need to be attacked/knocked down?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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