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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    This is misleading. You make it sound as if the scope of causes is smaller than it is. What decides ones action is genes, past circumstances and present circumstances. When reading you, one might be mislead to think we believe only the latter is relevant.
    Presence... present....

    If I wanted to be truly accurate, I'd say nothing at all.

    Besides which the reader is expected to do something other than merely pick the words off the screen with their eyes.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Those who think that there's no such thing as free will I have a challenge.

    Cause and effect.
    The effect is never wrong to the cause.
    Ergo if all choice is an illusion and only effect remains then there is no wrong choice. Don't you think that's a little blind?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Presence... present....

    If I wanted to be truly accurate, I'd say nothing at all.

    Besides which the reader is expected to do something other than merely pick the words off the screen with their eyes.
    I know what you wrote, I didn't read it wrong. All I am saying is that it is easily understood that way. Also you don't mention the genes aspect. Again, I am not commenting on your actual opinion, but how what you wrote would easily be understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Those who think that there's no such thing as free will I have a challenge.

    Cause and effect.
    The effect is never wrong to the cause.
    Ergo if all choice is an illusion and only effect remains then there is no wrong choice.
    Haha, you are playing word games. But nonetheless I agree.

  4. #24
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I know what you wrote, I didn't read it wrong. All I am saying is that it is easily understood that way. Also you don't mention the genes aspect. Again, I am not commenting on your actual opinion, but how what you wrote would easily be understood.
    Depends upon how you read it I guess. Depending upon your starting point you could misinterpret it but that can be done easily with so many things.

    Oh and in relation to genes, that depends more upon whether you believe it's all nature or nurture I suppose. Personally I'm of the opinion that genes have little to do with choices except define the raw material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Haha, you are playing word games. But nonetheless I agree.
    Well I could point out that relations are all important and that direct cause to effect is most often not discoverable but that seemed far more succinct.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #25
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Well I could point out that relations are all important and that direct cause to effect is most often not discoverable but that seemed far more succinct.
    I am referring to your use of the word wrong, which I am highly sceptical of. Wrong in what sense? The word gets two meanings: wrong in the moral sense and as in false. That makes for a highly dubious argument.

    If you were more precise, you would write:

    "Cause and effect.
    The effect is never false to the cause.
    Ergo if all choice is an illusion and only effect remains then there is no morally wrong choice."

    See the flaw?

  6. #26
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I am referring to your use of the word wrong, which I am highly sceptical of. Wrong in what sense? The word gets two meanings: wrong in the moral sense and as in false. That makes for a highly dubious argument.

    If you were more precise, you would write:

    "Cause and effect.
    The effect is never false to the cause.
    Ergo if all choice is an illusion and only effect remains then there is no morally wrong choice."

    See the flaw?
    What morals? I was talking about everything. If every effect is the result of cause, pure and simple, then every effect is correct to that cause. Their are no wrong options only those who differ in opinion. That has nothing to do with morals or falsifying things. If one person can get it to work then it works. If no one else can repeat it then it is simply not the same test. Nice and simple. One and one always equals two no matter what system you use. However you can write the numeral two in several styles. These styles are of course defined purely by their cause and are also all right. See if there is no choice, no option, then there is no wrong morally or otherwise. A decision is a choice. A mistake is an incorrect choice. If there is no choice, no option, no freedom to chose then there is no wrong.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #27
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What morals? I was talking about everything. If every effect is the result of cause, pure and simple, then every effect is correct to that cause. Their are no wrong options only those who differ in opinion. That has nothing to do with morals or falsifying things. If one person can get it to work then it works. If no one else can repeat it then it is simply not the same test. Nice and simple. One and one always equals two no matter what system you use. However you can write the numeral two in several styles. These styles are of course defined purely by their cause and are also all right. See if there is no choice, no option, then there is no wrong morally or otherwise. A decision is a choice. A mistake is an incorrect choice. If there is no choice, no option, no freedom to chose then there is no wrong.
    Hehe, well, I am not the one to argue against you. I am a nihilist and determinist. I don't believe in good or evil. The argument you gave was dubious, but sure, we reach the same conclusions.

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    People are part of reality, and other forces in reality work on predictable principles, although they can seem random if you don't understand the pattern behind them. People's minds are just a very complex pattern that may well be beyond their own comprehension.
    Ha, that's the debate is evolutionary psychology in a nutshell, I just read it in the course notes yesterday afternoon.

    You can break things into two schools of thought: One thinks the mind and identity is very complex but eventually could be shown to be a predictable pattern, the other side believes that identity is not predictable and goes beyond the effects upon it (such as society or physiology, etc.).

    The problem is that we cannot map a one-to-one correlation onto someone's personality (or behavior) just by looking at the brain, and the environmental forces are so unique and varied from person to person (even next-door neighbors... or even siblings!) that we can't offer a replicable prediction either. We can definitely gather a host of general predictions to predict someone's probable behavior, and we even know how to excite someone's brain to create a predictable broad response to the stimulation.. but the specifics and details are beyond us.

    I'm simply saying what you suggest is definitely one school of thought, but an arguable one without a real resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    If you are a person that does not believe in free will, then do you accept responsibility for your actions? If so then why?
    I suppose that is what I was getting at earlier... except more in the realm of "legal culpability."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Hehe, well, I am not the one to argue against you. I am a nihilist and determinist. I don't believe in good or evil. The argument you gave was dubious, but sure, we reach the same conclusions.
    :eek: Nihilist
    Determinisit?

    So you're determined to be pessimistic?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #30
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    :eek: Nihilist
    Determinisit?

    So you're determined to be pessimistic?
    Some might say so. I am certainly not happy. :P I have always been attracted to cynical perspectives.

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