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  1. #21
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Bluewing,

    Re: Okay, so good manners should be interpreted at face value. Thus when one puts 'good manners' on display, one does not claim that he has good motives.

    It is not my business what you choose to infer from good manners. Please, infer good motives from good manners if you wish, I often do the same, but do not expect that inference to be true in every instance. The motivation behind the behaviour of another is often a mystery, even where their behaviour is identical to our own at face value.

    Re: Etiquette is not means to the end of expressing a benign attitude, but is an end in itself.

    Etiquette might be a means of expressing a benign attitude, or an end in itself. In fact, it might be an means to almost any end you might imagine, from bartering a cheaper price to greasing the wheels of communication.

    Re: Don't see the relevance. With the two aforementioned maxims it is acceptable (though preferred otherwise) to have a malignant attitude whilst putting good manners on display as the latter is an end in itself and makes no implicit statement in regards to one's inner attitude.

    Think for a moment what it would mean if good manners without good motives were unacceptable. Is it preferable that people with bad motives also have bad manners?

    Regards,
    Lee
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    [It is not my business what you choose to infer from good manners. Please, infer good motives from good manners if you wish, I often do the same, but do not expect that inference to be true in every instance. The motivation behind the behaviour of another is often a mystery, even where their behaviour is identical to our own at face value.]
    So, good manners may reflect good motives, however not necessarily. So, if I have a neutral or a malignant attitude, it is acceptable for me to put on 'good manners' to foster communication as this is not an act of dishonesty. Those who assume good manners always imply benign motives will be misled, though not due to my fault, as their assumption was not warranted to begin with.


    From a society centered standpoint, we would want for citizens who have malignant motives to display good manners, as this conduces to establishment of an orderly environment. Though from an individual-centered standpoint, it is preferred that people with 'bad motives' display 'bad manners'. As this would make it easier for us to see what individuals we wish to avoid. The former, however, should be deemed more important than the latter. As without a stable society, the individual would not be in the position to pursue his interests.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #23
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Good luck on getting that package. That is very annoying.

    Do you also find it annoying when people, who said they were available on a certain date, so you went and planned something then, now say they are, unfortunately, unavailable?
    ANFP:
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  4. #24
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I am ... the kind of employee that will wear a jumper to conceal the fact that they have neglected to iron their shirt.
    So it's not just me then?

    My boiler man has just been, so I now have the rest of the day free!

    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    Do you also find it annoying when people, who said they were available on a certain date, so you went and planned something then, now say they are, unfortunately, unavailable?
    Y'know, the person that does that to me most often is my ENFP brother - except he doesn't TELL me he's unavailable, he just doesn't turn up, then says he forgot, and blames me for not reminding him!! Do you know anyone like that nocturne?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #25
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Okay...

    Do you know why we have Months in the year? I mean, I know where they came from and everything, and how it got started with the Roman Calender, but why do we still have them? It only distorts my perception of time by making some days seem further away than they are, and they aren't even uniform in number of days. I don't see why we couldn't just say something like "The 202nd day of 2008." It would make date calculation easier, because you would know what the date would be in 12 days, without consulting a calender.

    Also, why do people believe you are an ESFJ despite the fact that your posts aren't very ESFJ-ish?

  7. #27
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Y'know, the person that does that to me most often is my ENFP brother - except he doesn't TELL me he's unavailable, he just doesn't turn up, then says he forgot, and blames me for not reminding him!!
    Hah. I have only forgotten to show up for something like that once or twice. And that was because the invites went out like three or four weeks beforehand and I didn't hear anything until the day after when it was like, uh, where were you?

    Oops.

    But c'mon, an ENFP is trying to /organise/ something, here! The least you can do is be available!

    *grumble*

    At least my trusty ESFJ friend sympathises and is saying this is okay, we can do this and this and this and it'll all be fine!
    ANFP:
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    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
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  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Here's my question:

    Why does your type say "ESFJ", when you are really more like an INTP or some type close to that?
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  9. #29
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Varelse,

    The package I am expecting is my xbox360, so hopefully I will be back online in the next couple of days. However, I have just bought The Orange Box, and may be preoccupied with Half-Life 2 for a little while.

    Speak to you soon,
    Lee
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #30
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    Bluewing,

    Re: So, good manners may reflect good motives, however not necessarily. So, if I have a neutral or a malignant attitude, it is acceptable for me to put on 'good manners' to foster communication as this is not an act of dishonesty. Those who assume good manners always imply benign motives will be misled, though not due to my fault, as their assumption was not warranted to begin with.

    To be dishonest is to intend to deceive, and so it is not dishonest when we fail to meet the expectations of another. If a person uses good manners with the intent to suggest or assert some fact about themselves which they consider false, then they are being dishonest. However, if no such intent to deceive is present, and another infers such facts which in turn are false, then there is no dishonesty. Moreover, there is nothing warranted or unwarranted about such an inference, even if it turns out to be false.

    Re: Though from an individual-centered standpoint, it is preferred that people with 'bad motives' display 'bad manners'. As this would make it easier for us to see what individuals we wish to avoid.

    Perhaps you are in the fortunate position of being able to avoid such people without incurring a significant cost, but I think the rest of us simply appreciate good behaviour regardless of underlying intent, though of course we are ever on the look-out for those who do it out of genuine respect and politeness. For example, I much prefer a well-mannered salesman to a rude one, though I may recognise both have ulterior motives.

    Regards,
    Lee
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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