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  1. #81
    Senior Member syndatha's Avatar
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    I think that people spank from two very different points of view; there are those who spank, and think it's the right way to raise a child, and there are those who spank because they simply loose it. It depends on whether one is emotionally stable or unstable when it happens. I have two children, and before I had them, I was sure that I would never lay hands on them. However, I have slapped my now 4-year old on a few occations. I'm very ashamed of it, but I some times just loose control of myself. I find that different than having a system for physical punishment - which I suppose all types could have, but raising your child according to a system, seems quite J to me. Ps are generally more easy going, right?

    And, yes, I was spanked, mostly by my ISTJ-father. (My mother used to pinch me, twist my arm and things like that - no spanking.) I think my father was somewhat unstable when he spanked me - the level of frustration was just too high for him to handle. He didn't believe it was wrong, though. I think spanking is wrong, but even so, I find that I repeat his mistakes (in a much milder manner.)

    I don't believe in spanking, I try to dicipline my children mainly by removing privileges when they don't behave. Turning the TV off, taking a treasured toy away, things like that. And I normally give a warning: "If you do that again, you can't have your toy for the rest of the day." "If you sit on the table again, you won't have dinner". I also lock myself in with the child - "If you hit your sister, we'll sit together in the bathroom until you regret what you have done". Things like that are much more efficient in my opinion. But when I'm really exhausted, I tend to yell a lot - and, like I said, sometimes even get a little physical. I'm not proud of it, and I believe it's because of what was done to me as a child. And I can't really blame my father either, because he just repeated what was done to him. I just wish he had the ability to see that it was wrong in retrospect.

    Even now, at 32 years, he sometimes says that I wasn't spanked sufficiently as a child. That really pisses me off - I find it very disrespectful to say something like that to an adult. I'm also provoked by how him spanking me and my brother is something of a humorous family anecdote, it's not looked upon with any kind of regret or shame from my parents point of view.
    I have no sense of humour.

  2. #82
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by syndatha View Post
    I think that people spank from two very different points of view; there are those who spank, and think it's the right way to raise a child, and there are those who spank because they simply loose it. It depends on whether one is emotionally stable or unstable when it happens. I have two children, and before I had them, I was sure that I would never lay hands on them. However, I have slapped my now 4-year old on a few occations. I'm very ashamed of it, but I some times just loose control of myself. I find that different than having a system for physical punishment - which I suppose all types could have, but raising your child according to a system, seems quite J to me. Ps are generally more easy going, right?

    And, yes, I was spanked, mostly by my ISTJ-father. (My mother used to pinch me, twist my arm and things like that - no spanking.) I think my father was somewhat unstable when he spanked me - the level of frustration was just too high for him to handle. He didn't believe it was wrong, though. I think spanking is wrong, but even so, I find that I repeat his mistakes (in a much milder manner.)

    I don't believe in spanking, I try to dicipline my children mainly by removing privileges when they don't behave. Turning the TV off, taking a treasured toy away, things like that. And I normally give a warning: "If you do that again, you can't have your toy for the rest of the day." "If you sit on the table again, you won't have dinner". I also lock myself in with the child - "If you hit your sister, we'll sit together in the bathroom until you regret what you have done". Things like that are much more efficient in my opinion. But when I'm really exhausted, I tend to yell a lot - and, like I said, sometimes even get a little physical. I'm not proud of it, and I believe it's because of what was done to me as a child. And I can't really blame my father either, because he just repeated what was done to him. I just wish he had the ability to see that it was wrong in retrospect.

    Even now, at 32 years, he sometimes says that I wasn't spanked sufficiently as a child. That really pisses me off - I find it very disrespectful to say something like that to an adult. I'm also provoked by how him spanking me and my brother is something of a humorous family anecdote, it's not looked upon with any kind of regret or shame from my parents point of view.
    Wow. This is really honest. I have a similar story. While I don't believe in spanking, I have yelled and hit and done stuff along those lines that isn't healthy for the child or me. It takes so much thought and practice to discipline children effectively, that's for sure.

    I have found in my parenting ups and downs that when children are already misbehaving, or close to the line of misbehaving, that they don't respond very well, if at all, to verbal orders. Of course, we all want our kids to mind verbal orders, which comes over time with effective parenting. But in tough moments where the child is acting out, I find it much better in these moments to physically gently show the child what he or she needs to do differently, and help them do it. For example, if a child does something inappropriate with a toy, simply removing the toy and saying, "You may have that back in one hour." Or just removing the child from the table when he gets on the table saying, "We don't get on the table." If you offer ultimatems to the child, giving them the choice to behave better or to continue said behavior, they very often will choose the bad behavior as a challenge to the parent. That's why I think in young children the fewer ultimatems, the better. Then parents don't lose their power as much. And if confrontations stay at a minimum, the parent is also less likely to feel challenged and feel anger or frustration at the child, which easily escalates. Over time the child will respond more appropriately without you having to physically show them.

    I DO administer a time out to mine for hurting others or being very impudent to me. But only a short time-out. And while I make them apologize to me for their behavior after the time-out, I don't expect them to necessarily feel remorse, although I would hope they could. Feelings of remorse and having a conscience about what you've done to hurt someone else stem from being cared for and loved, and will exist in the child over time, even if they do seem to lack these feelings temporarily when they are acting out or frustrated.

    Just some things I've learned over the years........
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  3. #83
    Member ElusiveRain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Wow, I missed this earlier. This is a really inflammatory and overdramatic comment, don't you think?

    I know that many people currently out of prison and who do not loathe their parents have been spanked as children, including (but not limited to) myself and my sisters, my parents, some of my friends, and many people on these forums.

    While many have suggested that spanking may lead to future problems in some children, there is no need for grossly inaccurate blanket statements. If that's your experience with anyone who's ever been spanked, I think you need to get out more and meet new people. Seriously.
    No, I'm not being overdramatic here, though I am predisposed to displaying that quality . "My experience" was just that...My experience (my family).

    My comment included people who do not loathe their parents now, but loathed them as children. If you bring yourself back, and honestly evaluate how you felt as a child about your parent when they spanked you, I'm quite positive you will not remember warmth, love, and affection for them. Maybe later on that day, or the next, but definitely not while/prior to the spanking. My point was I do not want my children feeling that way toward me.

  4. #84
    Member ElusiveRain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Feelings of remorse and having a conscience about what you've done to hurt someone else stem from being cared for and loved, and will exist in the child over time, even if they do seem to lack these feelings temporarily when they are acting out or frustrated.
    This

  5. #85
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveRain View Post
    Spanking from any type has only negative consequences.
    Wrong. That's your personal opinion not fact.

    When a child is spanked in toddler years, the child is being taught not to do something because they might be inflicted with pain (if found out). It does not teach the real reason the act should not be performed.
    Again, wrong. That is once again your personal opinion and does not cover those parents who clearly outline the consequence the child is getting and why.

    When a child is spanked in young (elementary school) years, the child is taught not to do something out of fear of their parents' wrath--Again, this does not teach the child why he should not be doing something, because they are too afraid of the spanking to think about anything else.
    Same as above, if a parent doesn't tell a child why they are being punished, and that covers any form of punishment not just spanking, then they are not teaching them what they are doing wrong. A parent who explains what they are doing and why will teach the child.

    In my experience, a child spanked will either end up loathing their parents, or will end up in prison. If people get past the loathing of their parents as adults, they cannot say they did not loathe them as children.
    Your experience is very limited then. It sucks that you were on the receiving end of fear tactics as opposed to teaching why bad behaviour was not acceptable but your suggestion of children who are spanked either end up in prison or loathing their parents is your story and nothing else.

    My mother believed in discipline and teaching us about the consequences of bad behaviour, we were never spanked out of anger or frustration, our mother (generally) would stop us when we did something wrong, explain why it was wrong and tell us we were going to be spanked. Afterwards we were told to go to our bedroom and think about what we had done wrong until we recognised what the bad behaviour was, why it was unacceptable, what the consequences were and we were ready to apologise, only then were we able to leave our room. We were never spanked without understanding why. My father on the other hand was inconsistent and didn't like disciplining us, we learnt that we could get away with things by manipulating things, we also learnt that he hated disciplining us and if he had to we'd get some kind of treat later so bad behaviour wasn't discouraged.

    I'm pleased to tell you that my brother, sisters and myself have never been in any kind of lock up, or had any problems with the law, and we love our mother. As I got older my mother was not in a great place emotionally and would yell at me a lot, for that I resented her, for teaching me about consequences I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveRain View Post
    My comment included people who do not loathe their parents now, but loathed them as children. If you bring yourself back, and honestly evaluate how you felt as a child about your parent when they spanked you, I'm quite positive you will not remember warmth, love, and affection for them. Maybe later on that day, or the next, but definitely not while/prior to the spanking. My point was I do not want my children feeling that way toward me.
    I hated being spanked, but I understood what was happening and it taught me that I could never blame someone else for my bad behaviour and that in life we have to accept the consequences of our actions. It also taught me to stop and think about the potential consequences before I did something I knew I shouldn't. But guess what, I also hated it when my parents told me I couldn't get a new pair of roller-skates and when they made me eat spinach or wouldn't let me have chocolate, if your aim is to never allow your children to feel anger towards you then good luck but you're living in a dream world.

    I'm not saying parents should spank their children in order to teach them the lessons I learnt as a child, there are some people I think that would be a god-awful idea for either because they couldn't be consistent with it or wouldn't be able to separate the emotion of rage/frustration with the spanking, but I will not accept arguments that say spanking is always wrong and can never have positive outcomes because my personal experiences with a mother who did what she did in a patient way and with her children's best interests at heart proves otherwise.

  6. #86
    Member ElusiveRain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Wrong. That's your personal opinion not fact.
    Any thoughts on spanking are merely opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Again, wrong. That is once again your personal opinion and does not cover those parents who clearly outline the consequence the child is getting and why.
    You cannot explain adequately to a toddler why something is wrong. By toddler, I'm talking about children under two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Same as above, if a parent doesn't tell a child why they are being punished, and that covers any form of punishment not just spanking, then they are not teaching them what they are doing wrong. A parent who explains what they are doing and why will teach the child.
    A parent can speak until they are blue in the face about why something is wrong, but as I said, the child will not be thinking about that because they are too afraid to think of anything but the spanking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Your experience is very limited then. It sucks that you were on the receiving end of fear tactics as opposed to teaching why bad behaviour was not acceptable but your suggestion of children who are spanked either end up in prison or loathing their parents is your story and nothing else.
    I should reclarify here--I was talking about my experience, my family. There were only two of us, my brother ended up in prison and I do not feel affectionate toward my mother (especially concerning this issue).

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    My mother believed in discipline and teaching us about the consequences of bad behaviour, we were never spanked out of anger or frustration, our mother (generally) would stop us when we did something wrong, explain why it was wrong and tell us we were going to be spanked. Afterwards we were told to go to our bedroom and think about what we had done wrong until we recognised what the bad behaviour was, why it was unacceptable, what the consequences were and we were ready to apologise, only then were we able to leave our room. We were never spanked without understanding why. My father on the other hand was inconsistent and didn't like disciplining us, we learnt that we could get away with things by manipulating things, we also learnt that he hated disciplining us and if he had to we'd get some kind of treat later so bad behaviour wasn't discouraged.
    This is exactly how my mother was about spanking--Never out of frustration, always explained why. Afterwards she would give us a hug and make sure we understood not to do it again. If you were trying to manipulate and get away with things, just like I mentioned in my previous post, her spankings did not change the person, they merely changed the behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I'm pleased to tell you that my brother, sisters and myself have never been in any kind of lock up, or any problems with the law, and we love our mother. As I got older my mother was not in a great place emotionally and would yell at me a lot, for that I resented her, for teaching me about consequences I didn't.
    I'm glad you love your mother now. I would like to talk to the little nine-year-old you who was most likely afraid and not full of love for their mother or themself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I hated being spanked, but I understood what was happening and it taught me that I could never blame someone else for my bad behaviour and that in life we have to accept the consequences of our actions. It also taught me to stop and think about the potential consequences before I did something I knew I shouldn't. But guess what, I also hated it when my parents told me I couldn't get a new pair of roller-skates and when they made me eat spinach or wouldn't let me have chocolate, if your aim is to never allow your children to feel anger towards you then good luck but you're living in a dream world.
    Yes, there are many things that children hate their parents for doing, and none of them make a child hate themselves the way a spanking can. None of them can cause the fear and extreme internal rage that assault on another human being does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I'm not saying parents should spank their children in order to teach them the lessons I learnt as a child, there are some people I think that would be a god-awful idea for either because they couldn't be consistent with it or wouldn't be able to separate the emotion of rage/frustration with the spanking, but I will not accept arguments that say spanking is always wrong and can never have positive outcomes because my personal experiences with a mother who did what she did in a patient way and with her children's best interests at heart proves otherwise.
    I appreciate your thoughts on my comment, and I didn't mean it to be something I would constantly have to defend, but rather a statement about how I feel about spanking. I know that these are my own opinions, but I thought I should get them out there, because I was not the only child with these feelings, and other people out there like me are getting spanked by parents who mean well, and would never hit their children when they are out of control. Those parents do not understand what they are doing to their children internally. In very simple terms, it is extreme violation of a person's whole being. I understand that a lot of people get over it into adulthood, and even joke about it. No one will convince me that they did not feel violated as it happened.

  7. #87
    Member ElusiveRain's Avatar
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    I'm sorry mrcockburn, somehow I've completely changed the OP of your thread. Anyone else who would like to discuss this, I'd be happy to give my opinion (and I know it is just my opinion), on my own page or in a PM. Unless mrcockburn is OK with it going on here. Really sorry...

  8. #88
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveRain View Post
    I'm glad you love your mother now. I would like to talk to the little nine-year-old you who was most likely afraid and not full of love for their mother or themself.
    Ah, no, don't try that. You clarify your post with a 'these are my opinions' claim then suggest that ^ claiming to know how I felt despite my saying otherwise. That's rich.

    Let me make it really clear for you:

    9 year old me was not afraid of my parents
    9 year old me did not hate my mother
    9 year old me did not hate myself or think I was unloved.

    Stop projecting.

  9. #89
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    Pardon my interjection, but as you have stated above, there are no conclusive generalizations that can be made easily in the realm of typology, especially over the medium of this forum. While criminal profiling does have some solid statistics(prison rates aren't arguable, although how it is measured that a crime was committed is questionable) behind it and even that deserves sensitivity in execution, the empiricism involved in type-to-trait links are highly weak and any consequent generalization is also built upon weak grounds. The initial authors of MBTI were very careful to avoid negative generalizations because they had minimal to no evidence to support such generalizations and using them where they very easily could not apply would easily do more harm that good to any individual reading the profiles.

    In short, I do not see adequate data that can support any conclusion to be drawn about negative traits, at least in the realm of "why." While it is true that SJs may be more inclined to spanking their children, (and that somewhat misrepresents the facts in that any group MAY spank their children and no negative correlations have been noted thus far) I think it is a step very deep into potentially offensive speculation to say "SJs are all about tradition, spanking is a very "traditional" method of discipline" with the implications thereof.
    Your whole post is based off the assumption that spanking is bad and that following tradition for the sake of tradition is bad (and what a fitting belief to possess as a Ti+Ne-er, no?), but when I (loosely) correlate SJs and spanking, I don't correlate SJs with some negative trait, as I don't see spanking as an inherently negative thing. Spanking is only inherently negative when it is done in an ineffective manner, and I never said that SJs perform spanking in an ineffective way.

    Furthermore, my "correlation" was supposed to be a lighthearted generalization. I was basing my suggestion off of one post, and it was not meant to be taken with much weight. I see no problem with gathering statistics and attempting to theorize a causal relationship with anything, however. That's how any realm of science works, and while admittedly, typology is not scientific, we approach it in a bit of a scientific way on this forum, by asking questions and then gathering info. So long as we are willing to accept the fact that our information does not hold empirical value, then it's all good, right?
    Last edited by teslashock; 01-18-2010 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #90
    Member ElusiveRain's Avatar
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    To Trinity:

    You are right, I've overstepped my bounds. I don't mean that a person hates themselves or their parent through all of childhood--just when they are being spanked. That is how most children feel while being spanked (not through their whole life), but I should not have assumed that about you.

    This subject is a difficult one for me, but I really don't like conflict, so hopefully there are no hard feelings. I wish I could take back even replying to this thread in the first place.

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