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  1. #111
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    The occassional smack did nothing for the enfp who is 13 now. Typically he was so spastic that a smack was irrelevant, and would result in even worse Te temper tantrums. He was already emo melting down and it just would fuel the fire.
    Ha, getting smacked by my parents meant nothing to me either. It barely clicked on my register. Considering that I walk into walls and bump into tables on an hourly basis, pain means almost nothing to me.

    I would sit very still and stare directly at them, never giving them the satisfaction of seeing me humbled. Then I would just go and do whatever it was that I was doing, just better this time and with more determination. I went through a really devious phase where I did so many things just to see if I could get away with them. And I always did. I learned to be smarter because of those spankings. They really inspired me. I felt more confident every time I got away with something and it made me think of my parents as really stupid human beings, because I was always a few steps ahead of them and the only way they could stop me was if they smacked me. And even that didn't stop me. So yeah.

    Timeouts actually do nothing for him.

    "Really? You make me sit alone and glare at you? Right. Stupid mother figure. FAIL." is pretty much the response.
    Timeouts made me annoyed. I was only allowed to stare at the wall so I would miss all the hustle and bustle activity going around, which was torture. I really hated being on timeout. Every second felt like an hour. And of course, my rambunctious siblings would try to get me to react to things so I could get in more trouble... It bothered me so much, so I guess it was an effective punishment. It felt so harsh and inhumane. I would never survive a day in prison.

    Fi guilt works the best though as he cant be distracted once he sets his mind to a goal.
    That never worked with me. I looked down on my mother, and still do, whenever she pulls that shit. Appealing to my emotions will get you nowhere.

  2. #112
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Ok. The highest development of an INTP is someone who can solve the P=NP problem in their dreams, bring world peace and calculate the last decimal of pi.

    The highest development of an ENTJ is someonewho beats up people and shoves rulebooks down their throats.

    I think we have arrived to a balanced undestanding of types now.

    *disclaimer: this was intended as somewhat humorous, perhaps sarcastic.

    Edit: consider the alternative. We have a crackpot "genius" who thinks he has solved 2=3, is obsessed with numbers, theorizes that the moon eats people alive and by taking every 543th letter from the Bible we arrive at a prophecy regarding the 9/11. In the context of this forum, would it be our first responce to think "yeah, that's what INTP do allright, that's INTP there".

    No?

    Why?

    First of all: That's fucking crazy behavior, no matter what the type he was.
    Second of all: the regular INTP knows how to handle their theories better than that.

    I leave the conclusion to you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #113
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I used to get a lot of satisfaction of out maneuvering my parents when it came to any form of punishment but mostly spankings. When I knew Dad was gonna come home to give me a spanking for something that pissed off Mom, I would pad my butt with rags so I would not feel a thing. I would however give them the satisfaction by howling my head off during the painless padded spanking.

    Newspapers were the best/easiest to deal with. They made a lot of noise but virtually no pain. Nevertheless I would feign pain while getting it.

    switch/rod - sucks, especially if it has bits of broken stems sticking out. Some of those thin elastic ones could be worse than normal rounded firm ones. Developed an art form of choosing the least painful ones on my stick hunts.

    Belt: Sucks much more painful than hands. Only thing worse is a bad switch/stick/rod. Only good thing about belt is its most difficult to detect secret butt padding.

    Hand butt spanking: usually meh if done outside clothes think I had a bare butt spanking only once and it sucked.

    Newspaper: easiest

    Paddle: Not bad unless has holes in it to avoid wind resistance.

    When I hit 12 my dad said no more spankings next time he would hit me with his fist. I told him that if he did I would hit him back. That was the last corporal punishment event or discussion we ever had.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  4. #114
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    There are children who do not respond do verbal discipline. They don't fear the situational or verbal punishments of their parents and act out because they know that anything their parents do is just a temporary inconvenience and nothing truly bad can happen to them. The only way to keep them in check, as a child, is through pain or physical discomfort. Without the threat of a smack, they ignore their parents and behave like absolute monsters.

    However, there are also children on whom spanking does not work. The spanking would either cause them long-lasting emotional distress or they'll just shrug it off like it was nothing and keep going. These are the children who need verbal and situational discipline.

    I was one of the latter cases. My dad tried spanking me, but it had absolutely no effect on my behavior and the threat of spanking was not an effective way to make me behave. I saw it as a momentary discomfort that I will get over quickly and I would go back to what I was doing as though nothing had happened. Dad adapted his methods, got creative, and thus the mental warfare begun.

    I know someone whose daughter is more like the first type. She will ignore what you say, time outs will have no effect on her, you can take away her things, try to have talks with her about her behavior, etc, nothing works. The only thing she responds to is a spanking. The only time she will back down and show any kind of respect is when her personal space is violated and she is caused physical discomfort. Her dad doesn't like the fact that he has to spank her, but it is the only thing she responds to, so he does what he has to do so she understands that there are boundaries that cannot be crossed without consequences.

    He rarely spanks his son because the boy responds readily to verbal discipline, time-outs, the more "modern" idea of child discipline. The worst thing he could possibly do is ignore him, so that is the ultimate last-resort punishment when it comes to him specifically, whereas spanking is the ultimate last resort for his sister.

    Saying that spanking is bad and verbal discipline is the way to go 100% of the time is an incredibly narrow viewpoint. You need to personalize the discipline method to each child and unfortunately, there are children who will only respond to the threat of pain.

    I'd also like to point out that verbal, non-physical methods can seriously fuck your child up if you do it wrong, or if the child is especially sensitive to verbal punishments and you're using the wrong discipline method for him. You can be just as, if not MORE abusive, without ever laying a finger on your child. Abuse comes in all forms so condemning spanking because it's the most obvious and provocative method and advocating verbal discipline as the better solution is incredibly naive.

    Any kind of punishment method can work, just as any kind of punishment method can be abusive. It all depends on the parent and the child.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Ha, getting smacked by my parents meant nothing to me either. It barely clicked on my register. Considering that I walk into walls and bump into tables on an hourly basis, pain means almost nothing to me.

    I would sit very still and stare directly at them, never giving them the satisfaction of seeing me humbled. Then I would just go and do whatever it was that I was doing, just better this time and with more determination. I went through a really devious phase where I did so many things just to see if I could get away with them. And I always did. I learned to be smarter because of those spankings. They really inspired me. I felt more confident every time I got away with something and it made me think of my parents as really stupid human beings, because I was always a few steps ahead of them and the only way they could stop me was if they smacked me. And even that didn't stop me. So yeah.



    Timeouts made me annoyed. I was only allowed to stare at the wall so I would miss all the hustle and bustle activity going around, which was torture. I really hated being on timeout. Every second felt like an hour. And of course, my rambunctious siblings would try to get me to react to things so I could get in more trouble... It bothered me so much, so I guess it was an effective punishment. It felt so harsh and inhumane. I would never survive a day in prison.



    That never worked with me. I looked down on my mother, and still do, whenever she pulls that shit. Appealing to my emotions will get you nowhere.

    I think it depends on the child. My mother spanked me and it was a challenge of wills. I would never let her see me humbled. I would say natural consequenses work best with NT/NFs I can't speak much for SJs or SFs.


    My ENTP child just needed to be told what was unacceptable and she's never really needed a spanking after the first one I gave her @ 1-1/2 when she ran away from me in the park and because I slipped getting up was able to catch up with her before she ran into a busy street with me screaming for her to stop and her looking back and laughing at me the whole time. Even after two amazing 10 year old boys roller bladed into traffic and rescued her she was laughing and unaware of the danger. I spanked her right then and there and from that day forward she listened to me when I told her to stop. I've never had a problem with her since.

    I found that the more time I spent with my ENTP/ENxJ daughters reading, playing games and just talking, the less sassy and disobedient they are. I really trust them to do what is right most of the time.


    On the other hand I've had my ISFJ daughter begged to be spanked so she didn't have to be lectured! I tend to go on when I don't feel they are getting the point. Although in the end it really doesn't matter what I do, she keeps doing exactly what she wants anyway . . . and yet you should see how hard she is on her little sister! Whew! I don't get it.

    At any rate what ever your view on spanking it should NEVER be administered in anger! Better to walk away and come back when you're calm. Also those parents who lose control in the market usually are too lazy /ignorant to have an effective discipline plan set up AHEAD of time (like the super nanny) that uses reward as well as punishment.

    I think the best thing to do with kids is let them know how much you believe in them and help them take responsibility early. I find this works out really well with Middle school aged children. They are desperate to know that you believe in them no matter what!

  6. #116
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    There are children who do not respond do verbal discipline. They don't fear the situational or verbal punishments of their parents and act out because they know that anything their parents do is just a temporary inconvenience and nothing truly bad can happen to them. The only way to keep them in check, as a child, is through pain or physical discomfort. Without the threat of a smack, they ignore their parents and behave like absolute monsters.

    However, there are also children on whom spanking does not work. The spanking would either cause them long-lasting emotional distress or they'll just shrug it off like it was nothing and keep going. These are the children who need verbal and situational discipline.
    I agree with you I think, and this is kinda offtopic, but what about the child who shrugs off both types, verbal or "time-outs" as well as spanking? I know they exist because I was one, heh.
    -end of thread-

  7. #117
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    There are children who do not respond do verbal discipline. They don't fear the situational or verbal punishments of their parents and act out because they know that anything their parents do is just a temporary inconvenience and nothing truly bad can happen to them. The only way to keep them in check, as a child, is through pain or physical discomfort. Without the threat of a smack, they ignore their parents and behave like absolute monsters.
    This is a gross overgeneralization, don't you think? It's in no way, shape, or form the reality I know.

    Saying that spanking is bad and verbal discipline is the way to go 100% of the time is an incredibly narrow viewpoint. You need to personalize the discipline method to each child and unfortunately, there are children who will only respond to the threat of pain.
    I have met lots of kids in my life and I wholeheartedly disagree. Children who will only respond to the threat of pain are the children whose care providers have neglected to use other parenting tools at their disposal, and there has been a serious breakdown in communication between parent and child.


    To my mind, spanking (which I do not advocate at all) and time-outs (which I don't advocate much either) or any other negative (negative because you are using it as a result of bad behavior) punishment meeted out is a last ditch effort when better, more effective parenting methods have failed. Ideally, positive parenting, used when a child is given quality care and attention, and is taught age-appropriate consequences, will eliminate the need for heavy-handed discipline. So, you are really talking about how you punish your child for misbehaving, when speaking of using spanking or other forms of punishment. If you have learned about child behavior and have learned some tools about how to deal with expected developmental issues that arise, you can prevent much of the acting out and misbehaving associated with ineffective parenting, and just childhood challenges in general! Consequently, many parents (and care providers) that do adopt some positive parenting techniques and use them frequently, find it harsh and uncomfortable to revert back to spanking in the occasional moments when the child does indeed misbehave bad enough to warrant some form of negative reinforcement.

    Many parents of past generations tended to use spanking as the favored parenting technique in their arsenal, weilding it as the primary and only method of punishment and education; and the reasons for this are many and varied. In our day and age, there really is no reason not to become informed about childhood developmental stages, and methods of parenting, including attachment and positive parenting; the continuum concept, and many others; either through the numerous books on the market, sites on the internet, or parenting groups that exist in every community.

    Finally, People, having a child, or adopting a child, of your own changes you in inexpressible ways. You might find the thought of physically punishing your child a different matter once you become a parent.
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  8. #118
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I have met lots of kids in my life and I wholeheartedly disagree. Children who will only respond to the threat of pain are the children whose care providers have neglected to use other parenting tools at their disposal, and there has been a serious breakdown in communication between parent and child.
    I second that. I've never met one child, no matter how "bad" their behavior was, who needed to have pain intentionally inflicted upon them as a teaching "tool". It'd be nice if non-violent communication, parenting skills, and child developmental psychology courses were taught in middle and high school.

    Most children I've met who were so out-of-control that they left the adults in their presence scrambling for solutions came from horrid/monstrous families or circumstances. They were simply doing the best they knew how in order to shake off all of the anger, fear, and insecurity that had built up inside of them. They needed someone to listen to them and help them cope better through divorce, abuse, poverty, sickness, parental depression, poor nutrition, you name it. Children have the same problems as adults do. What they don't typically have are the same resources and abilities to cope. They definitely don't need to be hit when they show signs of distress. Negative behaviors are simply symptoms of a larger problem. Repressing negative behaviors simply allows the problems to grow unnoticed. It only takes a little extra time to get down on the child's level and try to understand them and their position.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  9. #119
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    This is a gross overgeneralization, don't you think? It's in no way, shape, or form the reality I know.
    I said that is the only way you can deal with that specific type of child. You're assuming it's a gross overgeneralization because you picked up on one part of the paragraph and ignored the rest. I am saying that whether you like it or not, there are some kids on whom the warm fuzzies approach to child rearing doesn't work and raising them that way will only feed their bad behavior because they're not learning that their actions have consequences.

    I have met lots of kids in my life and I wholeheartedly disagree. Children who will only respond to the threat of pain are the children whose care providers have neglected to use other parenting tools at their disposal, and there has been a serious breakdown in communication between parent and child.
    You've met lots of kids in your life. Good for you. I've met lots of kids in my life too, and I've known a few who could not be reasoned with intellectually or emotionally and only respond to physical discipline. I am not saying that this is the first response a parent should take, as you're assuming, nor am I saying that this is something that should be done to all children, as you're assuming. In fact, the number of kids who only responded to physical discipline have been very few and far between, in my experience. My point is simply that they exist and whether you want to admit it or not, spanking is the best way to deal with them.

    Assumptions, assumptions. You assume that their care providers are neglecting other options and have a breakdown in communication. You're assuming that they haven't used every tool at their disposal before resorting to the spanking option. A lot of you are pretty much assuming that spanking is only done by horrible people who don't understand their children.

    As an NF, I'm not really surprised to hear that from you. It seems most of the NFs in this thread are heartily opposed to spanking, and I don't blame you, because spanking would have been a horrible experience for you.

    My sister is an ESTJ. Spanking was the only way to keep her within reasonable boundaries. She would fly completely off the handle, she could not be reasoned with, she would scream and go into absolute hysterics. If you tried to talk to her, reason with her, put her on time out, anything of that sort, you would only feed into her outbursts and make them worse. The spankings almost acted as a way to snap her back into reality. They were the ONLY thing that calmed her down. They went to child rearing seminars, took her to a child therapist, bought all manner of self help books, but nothing they tried worked. Only the spankings.

    I feel I should also mention that even as an adult, reasoning with her and trying to talk things out only makes the situation worse. She married recently and her husband has found that the only way to deal with her is to be very firm and assertive and black-and-white. When she has one of her tantrums, he has to tell her the way things are going to be and she doesn't have a choice in the matter and that if she's not going to calm down and cooperate, she can leave the house and come back when she decides to be reasonable.

    Same attitude, only matured and aged some. Since she's older and able to rationally understand things better, she responds to things like the way her husband puts his foot down -- but even then, he has to physically remove her from the situation, ie kick her out of the house or make her sleep on the sofa because she's out of line. It's the same principle -- she only responds to absolute authoruty and physical discomfort. If she doesn't get these things, she doesn't understand where her boundaries are and she tramples all over everyone and behaves very badly.

    The other child I mentioned who only responds to spankings is an ESFJ. She's pretty much the same story. If you don't give her clear-cut physical boundaries, she will challenge you and cross them on purpose to see how much she will get away with. The more you try to talk to her and figure out her motivations, the worse her disruptive behavior will get. She will even lie to you and give you bad information to twist the situation around and make it worse. The only thing she respects is that if she breaks the rules, she risks getting a spanking. Her dad's tried talking to her about what she feels, why she did things, he watches that Super Nanny shows to searching for ideas of how to manage his daughter, I even saw some books on child development and rearing in his bookshelf. Nothing from the professionals works except for the threat of a spanking.

    This is the type of personality that needs physical discipline in order to understand their limits, and this is the only type of personality in which I would understand giving them a spanking. I would never spank a sensitive child like an NF for obvious reasons. Spanking would be horrible for them and there are much better ways of making them understand their boundaries. But when it comes to the personality types I've described above, much as I personally dislike spanking and would only do it grudgingly, it's what works for them.

    As a final thought, I'd be ineterested to know how many of the people here with strongly held opinions about spanking actually have experience raising a child. Some things are easier said than done and it's easy to prescribe to an ideal when you've not experienced it directly. Having experience with being raised by your own parents is not at all the same as raising one yourself.

  10. #120
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I do not feel like I was making assumptions at all. I was simply responding as best I could to what you wrote. I see some assumptions on your part however, like this one, "...because spanking would have been a horrible experience for you."

    As for the rest, I perused it, but don't feel the need to get bogged in your mire at this time. I'm happy with my original response. And tone.
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