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  1. #21
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The fact I have presented does not in anyway undermine the goodness of people in my mind.
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's wht I meant. And you say you have a deal. But from above, I can gather that you think you have a deal that is somehow amoral.
    No, I don't find this amoral. I find contradictions between what I was taught and what I believed to be true and this, while suddenly rejecting the former. If you say people have "good" and "bad" sides, I think of "selfless" and "self-centered" sides. It seems they only possess one of the above.

  2. #22
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    Altruism is irrational. Irrationality is a vice, not a virtue! I think most are confusing kindness with altruism.

    To be truly altruistic, you need to always act to further a random person's interests over your own. Consider the implications. If the love of your life and a stranger was drowning and you could only save one, true altruism would dictate that you sacrifice your love one. To do otherwise would mean that you are placing yourself first.

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Altruism is irrational. Irrationality is a vice, not a virtue! I think most are confusing kindness with altruism.

    To be truly altruistic, you need to always act to further a random person's interests over your own. Consider the implications. If the love of your life and a stranger was drowning and you could only save one, true altruism would dictate that you sacrifice your love one. To do otherwise would mean that you are placing yourself first.
    Well, no. Altruism requires that you give to others. If you can only save one out of two people, and one is a stranger and one is your love, it makes no difference which you save. One choice will benefit your interests more than the other, but both choices will benefit another person's interests the same amount. So, in terms of altruism, there is no bias toward one decision over another.

    And altruism, in its tangible form (which, again, is its only real form) is very far from irrational. It is an integral part to maintaining a social strategy and we as a species have evolved innate mechanisms for encouraging altruism in relation to that fact.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    morose bourgeoisie
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  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Only glanced the article, but it reminds me a bit of this:

    Nice Guys Finish First - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, no. Altruism requires that you give to others.
    Simple giving is not altruism. A person who gives in order to ingratiate is not altruistic by any definition. Self sacrifice must be involved.

    Kindness is rational. Self sacrifice is madness.

  7. #27
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Simple giving is not altruism. A person who gives in order to ingratiate is not altruistic by any definition. Self sacrifice must be involved.

    Kindness is rational. Self sacrifice is madness.
    So if a person who doesn't like kids, but volunteers to help kids because it will look good in front of the camera is not sacrificing anything?

    When a horse breaks its leg and has to be put down, is it an act of kindness or an act of self-sacrifice by the owner? Isn't it both?
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  8. #28
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Simple giving is not altruism. A person who gives in order to ingratiate is not altruistic by any definition. Self sacrifice must be involved.
    Yes, but the key point is that the other person gets more than you. In the scenario given involving two people drowning, there's still not altruistic bias toward saving the stranger over your lover. You do not get more altruism points for hurting yourself more while still helping the same amount of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Kindness is rational. Self sacrifice is madness.
    I've already pointed out that no one chooses to make a complete sacrifice. For some, in some cases, the pleasure of giving is the compensation.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    So if a person who doesn't like kids, but volunteers to help kids because it will look good in front of the camera is not sacrificing anything?
    It's an investment that is made because greater returns are anticipated.

    When a horse breaks its leg and has to be put down, is it an act of kindness or an act of self-sacrifice by the owner? Isn't it both?
    It's not necessarily either. It could be done for expediency, economics, compassion or any other reason.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, but the key point is that the other person gets more than you. In the scenario given involving two people drowning, there's still not altruistic bias toward saving the stranger over your lover. You do not get more altruism points for hurting yourself more while still helping the same amount of people.
    If you save the other, a third person could benefit from it at your expense.

    I've already pointed out that no one chooses to make a complete sacrifice. For some, in some cases, the pleasure of giving is the compensation.
    I think most people actually mean "kindness" when they say "altruism".
    Kindness is totally rational. You get paybacks. Your own joy. You build up good will for the future. Social cooperation is enhanced. Etc.

    True altruism must involve a net loss to yourself in the big picture. You must act in other's interests at the expense of your own.

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