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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    "The outcome is the same" as I've already stated - but considering that being an altruist who helps people is based on the idea of the act itself (= helping for the sake of it, solidarity etc.), I think the results are only moderately important in this case.
    I think the results are never less than the most important thing in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    If we presume that every "altruistic" act is at least partially egoistic in its nature, it makes me wonder if altruism ever existed.
    It looks to me like altruism as you imagine it in fact did not ever exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I think the first case is the only one fulfilling the criteria of selflessness. Everything else is "social investment", where I give just as much as I recieve (the promise of future support at least), so in case I can clearly tell what a person is aiming for, do I even have to thank him/her? After all, it's simply "business".
    What I meant was it can be very difficult to know which of the three courses a person is pursuing when they appear to be altruistic.

    And as I said, the first is only materially selfless. In abstract terms, it is still self-indulgence.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #12
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    ^ I think I get it.

    It starts to make sense. Everybody helps driven by selfish intents (consciously or not), but of course not everybody wants material remuneration.

    It's like a scale between "calculating the concrete gains of the process" and "[partially] helping to feel better [without knowing it]". That doesn't sound too great, does it? So why should I be grateful for any signs of help? You've had your share, now scram. (half-joking)

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    ^ I think I get it.

    It starts to make sense. Everybody helps driven by selfish intents (consciously or not), but of course not everybody wants material remuneration.

    It's like a scale between "calculating the concrete gains of the process" and "[partially] helping to feel better [without knowing it]". That doesn't sound too great, does it? So why should I be grateful for any signs of help? You've had your share, now scram. (half-joking)
    Because if someone is being materially selfless, you still, in material terms, receive a net gain out of it. That's what there is to be grateful for. If it becomes apparent that the person you are dealing with is a reliable source of this sort of behavior, it would be stupid of you to rid yourself of them.

    And there's something else worth noting. The world of material reward is a zero-sum game, but the world of abstract rewards is a variable-sum game. It's no threat to you that someone else feels good about something. If they feel good about transfering wealth from themselves to you, all the better. You presumably get some abstract reward from your material reward, no? Not unless you hate what you've received (which is known to happen). So when this altruistic person gives something to you, you both gain an abstract reward.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #14
    morose bourgeoisie
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    That's not "a different perspective", that's the same assumption explained away. Btw I know full well that an altruist would never say such things, might not even always think through it; the question is the cause of selflessness, knowingly or unknowingly.
    I think it's a very different perspective. It's the difference between an outside observation and internal motivation.
    If you believe that all acts of selflessness are rendered selfish because of some percieved gain (or ego gratification) then what are we talking about? I can't argue with the logic there, but I do disagree with the terms of the argument.

  5. #15
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soar337 View Post
    Everything a person does has a selfish intent in the end.
    Agreed, and I don't think there's anything wrong with this. There is no better motivator for us than our selves.

  6. #16
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think the results are never less than the most important thing in any case.
    I don't. Besides, I was mainly talking about the results' relevance to my questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It looks to me like altruism as you imagine it in fact did not ever exist.
    How would you define altruism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Because if someone is being materially selfless, you still, in material terms, receive a net gain out of it. That's what there is to be grateful for
    That's what I consider 'the usual business'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If it becomes apparent that the person you are dealing with is a reliable source of this sort of behavior, it would be stupid of you to rid yourself of them.
    I don't want to get rid of them. Why would I get rid of a good trade partner? It's that he/she helps me in order to gain something (for him/herself), and I'm also rewarded in the process. He/she wants to get an ego boost, and I want something else from him/her. He/she provides me with material or virtual funds, and I provide him with the possibility of self-gratification. Then we shake hands and part ways. It's just that I see this as a bidirectional process, and not really "help for the sake of helping".

    Though I do understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If they feel good about transfering wealth from themselves to you, all the better. You presumably get some abstract reward from your material reward, no?
    The question remains: what do they want? Is it a trade, where they give something and they expect a reward in return, or is it "altruism", where they give something for the sake of giving, without expecting anything else. If their real intention is "giving", and it just so happens that they feel good while they do it, that's cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    If you believe that all acts of selflessness are rendered selfish because of some percieved gain (or ego gratification) then what are we talking about?
    Yup, this turned out to be my 'thesis' for today. Prove me wrong. For the sake of the argument, let's state that "ego gratification" is also a percieved gain. Since... well, it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I can't argue with the logic there
    Nice.

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    How would you define altruism?
    Altruistic morals are the belief that benefit to others is of higher value than benefit to yourself. An altruistic act is essentially sacrificial generousity. An act in which you lose something at someone else's gain.

    The main distinction I make, however, by my definition, is that all of these things can really only apply to material matters, for the reasons I've already explained. The very morals you are trying to satisfy mean that when you give to another, you are doing it to satisfy your own feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    That's what I consider 'the usual business'.
    Does that bother you in some way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I don't want to get rid of them. Why would I get rid of a good trade partner? It's that he/she helps me in order to gain something (for him/herself), and I'm also rewarded in the process. He/she wants to get an ego boost, and I want something else from him/her. He/she provides me with material or virtual funds, and I provide him with the possibility of self-gratification. Then we shake hands and part ways. It's just that I see this as a bidirectional process, and not really "help for the sake of helping".
    Yes. So what of it? No one, in abstract terms, does anything solely because it helps someone else. That is a fact. How I measure someone's integrity in this regard is how good it makes them feel to do somethin good for someone else, and how bad it makes them feel to do something bad for someone else. It doesn't get any less selfish than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    The question remains: what do they want? Is it a trade, where they give something and they expect a reward in return, or is it "altruism", where they give something for the sake of giving, without expecting anything else. If their real intention is "giving", and it just so happens that they feel good while they do it, that's cool.
    What if they give something with the expectation of something in return, and what they get in return is a good feeling? I'm blurring your dichotomy a bit.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soar337 View Post
    I help people and sacrifice things because I hope it will make me an unselfish/better person. And I like helping people. Everything a person does has a selfish intent in the end :P
    That sounds like it is forced though .. To be truly helpful is an unselfish act as it is can only be viewed as an act of kindness.

    I help where i can .. I don't look for any kind of rewards though (or maybe i do, maybe i get a sense of knowing i have eased the person's worries so they are better able to do other things).. It is just something i do and get pleasure from. A smile or conversation is priceless.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  9. #19
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The main distinction I make, however, by my definition, is that all of these things can really only apply to material matters
    My reaction in making was immediately shut down by this statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does that bother you in some way?
    Yes, to be honest, it does. If the fact that "no one, in abstract terms, does anything solely because it helps someone else" is true, I'll totally laugh in the face of every ass-licker humanitarian hippy next time I see them preaching about morals and goodness in humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What if they give something with the expectation of something in return, and what they get in return is a good feeling?
    You mean, they get "good feelings" instead of what they expected to get? That's a fucked-up trade alright, but does it change anything? If you meant they get exactly what they asked for (= good feelings), then we have a deal.

  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Yes, to be honest, it does. If the fact that "no one, in abstract terms, does anything solely because it helps someone else" is true, I'll totally laugh in the face of every ass-licker humanitarian hippy next time I see them preaching about morals and goodness in humans.
    I don't see why. This is a moral system. The fact I have presented does not in anyway undermine the goodness of people in my mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    You mean, they get "good feelings" instead of what they expected to get? That's a fucked-up trade alright, but does it change anything?
    Not what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    If you meant they get exactly what they asked for (= good feelings), then we have a deal.
    That's wht I meant. And you say you have a deal. But from above, I can gather that you think you have a deal that is somehow amoral.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

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