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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    You are.

    Let's pretend that you weren't. How do you personally know the level of apprehension present in others, concerning power dynamics in social situations?
    Believe what you want. Just don't make it into a case of overt egocentrism :/.

    As for how I know, because I have discussed these things with many people, observed them (everyone does this, I just pay more attention), and have a base of philosophy and psychology that would support my conclusions. I know not everyone understands quite as much about that sort of social dynamic because they never think about it from that pov, especially when it comes to discussing people who express antisocial behavior and values they have no respect or appreciation for. They rarely can put themselves in that frame of mind to understand how those people think, and how that has a direct bearing on the social dynamic. It's not a concept out of reach, as most people have a an understanding of how power and control can be used in other sorts of circumstances. It just isn't something most people think deeply about, as they tend to merely react to the concept being played out against them in their own life experiences. The more global aspects of it just aren't seen as relevant to them (as they perceive it), though the contrary is true.

  2. #32
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    No, no. Be a jerk so that only the worthy invest in a relationship with you, then be nice.
    The unworthy can give you lots, though. No point in factoring them out.

    Just because you don't care about someone doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get whatever you can out of them.


  3. #33
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Believe what you want. Just don't make it into a case of overt egocentrism :/.

    As for how I know, because I have discussed these things with many people, for years. I know not everyone understands quite as much about that sort of social dynamic because they never think about it from that pov, especially when it comes to discussing people who express antisocial behavior and values they have no respect or appreciation for. They rarely can put themselves in that frame of mind to understand how those people think, and how that has a direct bearing on the social dynamic. It's not a concept out of reach, as most people have a an understanding of how power and control can be used in other sorts of circumstances. It just isn't something most people think deeply about, as they tend to merely react to the concept being played out against them in their own life experiences. The more global aspects of it just aren't seen as relevant to them (as they perceive it), though the contrary is true.
    So, your anecdotal experience is the backbone for your in-thread assumption?

    What you're referring to is a lack of empathetic awareness. As you likely know, empathy grants certain of us the capacity to envision the behavior of others as we are able to compare their responses to how we would respond in a similar scenario. This 'personal standard' can provide an unreliable basis for consideration, as emotion is a polymorphous coin, reflecting less a universal sum than a conditioned system of thought.

    To that end, power and social dynamics is more about self-awareness than it is about external variables. Choosing to behave in a certain way because it catalyzes expected behaviors in others involves comparing falsifiable experience with testable hypothesis. This is my anecdotal nugget.

    I'm still uncertain how one could arrive your conclusion, based simply on snapshot opinions offered in the thread. At best, you had a sliver of analysis from each to go from.

  4. #34
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    Being a jerk sometimes works in the very short term, but it's a dead end and a social killer. The people who let you act like a fractious child will eventually start pushing back. That's how the real world works.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The unworthy can give you lots, though. No point in factoring them out.

    Just because you don't care about someone doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get whatever you can out of them.

    I knew I was doing something wrong...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    So, your anecdotal experience is the backbone for your in-thread assumption?
    I edited my above post. Feel free to recheck it.


    What you're referring to is a lack of empathetic awareness. As you likely know, empathy grants certain of us the capacity to envision the behavior of others as we are able to compare their responses to how we would respond in a similar scenario. This 'personal standard' can provide an unreliable basis for consideration, as emotion is a polymorphous coin, reflecting less a universal sum than a conditioned system of thought.
    Yes, you are right. Empathy allows us to put ourselves into the mind of others (in a way), to determine/experience how they think. Such information can be used to predict behavior in the target subject and the reactions of others around him through the same process. Aside from empathetic simulation, there is also personal experience that grants further data about how a given interaction is likely to play out.

    To that end, power and social dynamics is more about self-awareness than it is about external variables.
    Yes and no. That is your personal way of understanding the world (Ni), which is partially true, but not completely true. As you alluded to in your followup sentence, there is thinking (largely unobservable, subjective) and then there are behaviors (directly observable, objective). Psychology, the scientific study of human behavior and thought processes. It is a discipline, a science, that relies on testable hypothesis (with PREDICTABLE results) to understand the true nature of human behavior and how we think. This is a subject that has been tackled by philosophy for millennia, but philosophy never had the scientific process. By and large, the scientific process in psychology has and still does rely on directly observable behavior or biological processes as the basis for proving their hypotheses because science requires tangible variables. Thoughts are not tangible in and of themselves.

    The point is, self awareness as it related to antisocial BEHAVIOR is relevant in knowing what the thought process of the individual is, the root of his behavior. However, one does not have to rely on the unobservable "thought" to understand and predict behavior. External stimuli, when applied to a person, produces certain behaviors. Understanding the underlying thought process is not always necessary in forming what is basically an algorithm of human behavior as it relates to external and directly observable stimuli and resulting behaviors. For instance, this allows me to say that if a 5 year old is hit on the foot with a hammer hard enough, the 5 year old will cry. It is a simple, predictable, observable, testable equation. This applies to a great deal of basic behaviors and social interactions.

    However, the more complicated the interactions, the more complicated the process of understanding and predicting it is. This is when we begin to rely on understanding thought processes in addition to basic behavior responses that occur with just about everyone the same way. This is when we come to the variability created by the individual in increasingly complicated social interactions. Psychology can often take such interactions and reduce individual elements to testable hypothesis to develop a sort of algorithm that describes what will happen when such and such variables are present. Then you must combine them in order to describe and predict the overall situation. That process begins to escape predictability because there are so many variables at play of varying levels of importance.

    So outside of looking at social interactions scientifically, we are able to do much the same with our own brains as they form their own predictive models about the world and human behavior, far more efficiently than any computer or host of tested principles could ever do. This is where empathy comes in. Empathy provides one with more information about the situation, more information that can be used to predict outcomes. However, one must also be able to sort through the RELEVANT bits of information to accurately make predictions on the subject. The subject of this thread is: jerk behavior is good. I (others may take it differently) take this to mean that acting (behaving is directly observable, as opposed to THINKING, not observable) like a jerk will result in giving the person what he/she wants. That is the FOCUS of the thread. Not is it good/bad, not how it pertains to your values. The question is, does acting that way get people what they want? To understand that, you must understand what THEY want not what YOU WOULD want. Do you understand? What you think is null and void in the focus of the subject. What is relevant in the realm of values is in how people will typically react to such behavior, in if those reactions will give the jerk what he/she wants in the end.

    By using principles of tested psychology, philosophy, and personal experience to map out how such interactions would play out between observable behavior and internal thought processes, one can accurately predict how such situations play out.

    I hope this answers your question Night (yes, I am actually addressing you this time ).

    In the VERY long term trend, such antisocial behavior eventually leads them to ruin. Eventually you encounter push back to such undesirable behavior from those around you, and then you lose. How long you can keep it up and continue to get what you want is unpredictable, as it relies on everyone involved to act a certain way that is favorable to the jerk. Historically, tyrants and dictators almost always meet a grizzly end which is, no doubt, a result of their actions. However short lived it may be, it is however, a very successful means of obtaining power/control until the power trip ends.

  7. #37
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Thanks for the full-bodied response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post

    Yes and no. That is your personal way of understanding the world (Ni), which is partially true, but not completely true.
    It might interest you to know that I'm not an INTJ. Even if I were, relying on MBTI as a predictor for understanding thought patterns in others is unreliable, at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    As you alluded to in your followup sentence, there is thinking (largely unobservable, subjective) and then there are behaviors (directly observable, objective). Psychology, the scientific study of human behavior and thought processes. It is a discipline, a science, that relies on testable hypothesis (with PREDICTABLE results) to understand the true nature of human behavior and how we think. This is a subject that has been tackled by philosophy for millennia, but philosophy never had the scientific process. By and large, the scientific process in psychology has and still does rely on directly observable behavior or biological processes as the basis for proving their hypotheses because science requires tangible variables. Thoughts are not tangible in and of themselves.
    Psychology is close. What you're really referring to is the process of neurocognition - the relationship between thought processes and neural interactions. How people think as described by how they behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The point is, self awareness as it related to antisocial BEHAVIOR is relevant in knowing what the thought process of the individual is, the root of his behavior. However, one does not have to rely on the unobservable "thought" to understand and predict behavior. External stimuli, when applied to a person, produces certain behaviors. Understanding the underlying thought process is not always necessary in forming what is basically an algorithm of human behavior as it relates to external and directly observable stimuli and resulting behaviors. For instance, this allows me to say that if a 5 year old is hit on the foot with a hammer hard enough, the 5 year old will cry. It is a simple, predictable, observable, testable equation. This applies to a great deal of basic behaviors and social interactions.
    Agreed, with the exception of 'Antisocial' behavior and how it relates to the individual. I'm not sure the term itself is being wielded faithful to its origin. Can you definie 'Antisocial' within the context of your use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    [However, the more complicated the interactions, the more complicated the process of understanding and predicting it is. This is when we begin to rely on understanding thought processes in addition to basic behavior responses that occur with just about everyone the same way. This is when we come to the variability created by the individual in increasingly complicated social interactions. Psychology can often take such interactions and reduce individual elements to testable hypothesis to develop a sort of algorithm that describes what will happen when such and such variables are present. Then you must combine them in order to describe and predict the overall situation. That process begins to escape predictability because there are so many variables at play of varying levels of importance.

    So outside of looking at social interactions scientifically, we are able to do much the same with our own brains as they form their own predictive models about the world and human behavior, far more efficiently than any computer or host of tested principles could ever do. This is where empathy comes in. Empathy provides one with more information about the situation, more information that can be used to predict outcomes. However, one must also be able to sort through the RELEVANT bits of information to accurately make predictions on the subject.]
    This is more-or-less the pathway that behavior takes on the way to action. I don't know that this is a controversial point, but it helps that you offered it, as it generates a schematic for your analytical behavior (at least as you'd like us to believe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The subject of this thread is: jerk behavior is good. I (others may take it differently) take this to mean that acting (behaving is directly observable, as opposed to THINKING, not observable) like a jerk will result in giving the person what he/she wants. That is the FOCUS of the thread. Not is it good/bad, not how it pertains to your values. The question is, does acting that way get people what they want? To understand that, you must understand what THEY want not what YOU WOULD want. Do you understand?
    Risen, this tells me you don't fully understood my original point.

    You're offering a critique that doesn't apply to my point. At all.

    Here it is again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    When you're consistently a 'jerk', you're simply creating an underclass of vulnerable people willing to temporarily accomodate your behavior until you leave the room. You're not establishing any real (Read: respectable) power. You're just a bully.

    Make no mistake --anyone worth their weight in self-worth will make you eat your words.
    Here: your own words betray you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    What you think is null and void in the focus of the subject. What is relevant in the realm of values is in how people will typically react to such behavior, in if those reactions will give the jerk what he/she wants in the end.
    This is precisely what my original point offered.

    Your critique is without base. It doesn't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I hope this answers your question Night (yes, I am actually addressing you this time ).
    Again - thanks for the robust response.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Thanks for the full-bodied response.



    It might interest you to know that I'm not an INTJ. Even if I were, relying on MBTI as a predictor for understanding thought patterns in others is unreliable, at best.
    Haha! Well then I am beaten. Touche .



    Agreed, with the exception of 'Antisocial' behavior and how it relates to the individual. I'm not sure the term itself is being wielded faithful to its origin. Can you definie 'Antisocial' within the context of your use?
    Antisocial: "hostile to or disruptive of normal standards of social behavior; "criminal behavior or conduct that violates the rights of other individuals is antisocial""

    I believe being a jerk/tyrant/bully would fall under that definition of antisocial.




    Risen, this tells me you don't fully understood my original point.

    I didn't state that my original offering was fully inclusive, nor that it necessarily applied to every case.



    This is precisely what my original point offered.

    Your critique is without base. It doesn't apply.
    You're right. I forgot I wasn't even replying to your original statement to begin with -_-. My absentmindedness.

    I'll actually respond directly to that post you made, and say I agree.

  9. #39
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    I can see how this is true, and am really surprised when it happens. The dynamics of conformity when it comes to bullying and group behavior shocks me.

    Working in retail, the companies I worked for would often cave into customers who gave us a hard time 99% of the time. It doesn't matter how mean, how rude, how arrogant, how contrived the behavior was, as workers, we had to take that shit... well, not all of us, not those who rebel.

    I've seen it too many times, and then people will bend over backwards and kiss these people's asses? I would be so surprised. As a person who roots for the underdog, I always found ways in which I wouldn't cave into this mentality, and stood up for what I believed in.

    Behaviors that seem to be obnoxious seem to be well tolerated around where I live, for whatever reason.. IDK. That kind of attitude wouldn't be well tolerated coming from the ghettos where I used to live. Give an attitude? Watch it. That kind of behavior would be put in check in an instant.

  10. #40
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    TKO

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