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  1. #151
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Marmalade - 100 years ago where I come from there were only a few bands of aboriginal people around and a very few settlers. I'm referring to the increase of media and the decrease of those who would otherwise read to process ideas. I do realize that in general, basic literacy has increased. However, I would venture to say that most people of my generation watch far more TV/movies than read books in the run of a year. I have lived in both middle/upper class as well as low income communities/environments and found that to be the case.
    I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but...

    Explain why books are superior to popular entertainment medias without succumbing to the assumption that all people who read regularly are vastly intelligent.

    I am wanting you to do this because you must first determine whether reading has an educational edge over other medias before considering the value of social change.

  2. #152
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Proof? Are you saying that the upper classes read less? Because the literacy rate in the general population - especially among the working class - has actually risen, not fallen. People don't read any less than they ever did. It's just that all of the people who don't very much that you come into contact with on a regular basis used to not read at all 100 years ago. This just isn't true.
    :Moderato:

    According to the UN - in regards to their own literacy measurements -:

    There are three main forms of measurement: self-reports by individuals in censuses;
    reports through household surveys of the respondent's own literacy status and those of
    other household members; and assessments. They measure different things. Reports
    whether by individuals or others tend to give higher ratings than when literacy is
    measured by direct assessment.

    Can simple sentences be read, written, spoken and comprehended? That is the only difference between the literate and the illiterate. The inaccuracy of literacy reports and the low standards by which we measure literacy makes me think that measuring fluency should be a higher priority.

    :Allegro appassionato:

    So, why aren't the statistics on numeracy, document literacy and prose literacy ever discussed? They're not important? Of course they aren't, so long as you can read roadsigns and tell the guy behind the counter what kind of condoms you want, barely-functional literacy is okay.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #153
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    That being said, where are you going that homeless people also want to get in?
    TakeFive, that's the point. The only time we're going to the same place is when it's a public restroom or when they're following me asking for change or cigarettes.

    Opening restroom doors for others is inappropriate and opening doors for an aggressive panhandler(usually asking for something I don't have) is also inappropriate.

    I think this also answers Marm's question(What the fuck does that mean?).
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  4. #154
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, but...

    Explain why books are superior to popular entertainment medias without succumbing to the assumption that all people who read regularly are vastly intelligent.

    I am wanting you to do this because you must first determine whether reading has an educational edge over other medias before considering the value of social change.

    Because:

    Movies don't tend to discuss the reasons for manners, consideration for others or the development of empathic skills. It doesn't sell, nor does it have an entertaining plot line. Movies are restricted to what the consumer will buy and usually to a storyline rather than just a collection of ideas on a particular topic.

    It is much easier to emotionally manipulate people through that medium because music and picture are so powerful. Books require the reader to use their own imagination and consider ideas more directly. Movies often leave people with a general impression without stating thoughts as overtly.

    Movies are usually made to be absorbed in one sitting. Books are much more often stopped/started/reread and therefore can afford to go into more detail.

    More people are able to get their ideas published in books. Movies are restricted to those who have the influence and money to get their ideas out there. This also tends to be a smaller group of people who have more common characteristics in their political, religious, or social views.

    Movies are also a relatively new medium, and therefore cannot offer the range of styles, ideas, and beliefs that books encompass. Movies rarely expose you to a wide variety of perspectives and thoughts from throughout the centuries.

  5. #155
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Isn't this a cluster-fuck of confusion for today's guys.

  6. #156
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Shucks if aint broke don't fix it. Traditional manners work fine. If an occasional feminist doesn't want me to hold the door for her thats fine, I accomodate her. More often then not, I have received positive reviews of my traditional manners from even most self identified feminists.

    Once in a while this dog will bark and bust peoples balls/boobs. if for nothing else, for the fuck of it.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #157
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Because:

    Movies don't tend to discuss the reasons for manners, consideration for others or the development of empathic skills. It doesn't sell, nor does it have an entertaining plot line. Movies are restricted to what the consumer will buy and usually to a storyline rather than just a collection of ideas on a particular topic.

    It is much easier to emotionally manipulate people through that medium because music and picture are so powerful. Books require the reader to use their own imagination and consider ideas more directly. Movies often leave people with a general impression without stating thoughts as overtly.

    Movies are usually made to be absorbed in one sitting. Books are much more often stopped/started/reread and therefore can afford to go into more detail.

    More people are able to get their ideas published in books. Movies are restricted to those who have the influence and money to get their ideas out there. This also tends to be a smaller group of people who have more common characteristics in their political, religious, or social views.

    Movies are also a relatively new medium, and therefore cannot offer the range of styles, ideas, and beliefs that books encompass. Movies rarely expose you to a wide variety of perspectives and thoughts from throughout the centuries.
    But movies are much less lengthy than books, and they allow for multitudes of people to experience them at once. This gives their viewers the opportunity to reflect ideas and opinions in a socially interactive and inter-personally insightful environment.

    Furthermore, visual/audio entertainment shares direct and arbitrary interpretations for viewers, while books may skew perceptions via the individual's imagination. This may often result in misinterpretations of a given story's underlying value.

    If I feed, water, and shelter my dog, he may think "Wow, my owner must be a god."

    Conversely, if I feed, water, and shelter my cat, she may think "Wow, I must be a god."

    Books offer loose interpolations which are derived from abstract concepts, while movies directly illustrate a universal constant. How is one to say whether one is superior to the other?

  8. #158
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Superiority of one medium over another doesn't seem to be the issue but rather the qualitative and quantitative properties of each.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  9. #159
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Good argument, Fidelia! Especially the part about books being more egalitarian.

    I'll also add that I can read books from the 1400's and so on. Many of my favorite works were written over a thousand years ago. Can't do that with movies.

    Machiavelli says something beautiful about reading books in his Discourses on Livy that is superior to anything I can come up with:

    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #160
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You said it! How else can you be offered a passport into not only other lands, but other centuries, to be given admission to different company than you could ever hope to otherwise be permitted to meet? And to be have the privilege of interacting with the best minds from throughout the ages?

    I was thinking about it and another reason I think books are useful is that the author more often has to state their argument overtly. You can go back and re-read it and compare it to what they said earlier and turn it over in your mind and decide what you think about it. In a movie, the "author" states their argument only through subtleties - a line, a look, which actor they choose to portray a character, how they dress them...This means that people still come away with the message very strongly, but don't often realize it. There is nowhere to discuss the argument being made, as it is only a collection of very powerful impressions that sway the unconscious mind rather than the intellect.

    A book that is not worthwhile also doesn't rob you of much money or two hours of your life! You can flip through and decide whether it is worth the investment of valuable time.

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