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  1. #71
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Hatter View Post
    English is the easiest language to speak.




    ... Badly.

    And that's only half in jest. I would say that English is in fact quite easy to learn.
    But that's if you're talking about basic conversational skills. A French teacher of mine once said that basic English was easier than basic French, but good English was harder than good French.
    I don't think so.

    Tu n'as clairement pas ide de la difficult intrinsque de ce que j'appellerais un franais d'excellence.
    With "good French", you would not only need outstanding grammar skills, but also vast vocabulary, creativity (to avoid repetition, since it is forbidden), and a perfect understanding of intrinsic rhymes and rythms of sentences. The tenses are so incredibly precise when they describe an action they can be very tricky to handle.

    There's nothing that can compare this in English, or even in German. It's why French is the language of international diplomacy par excellence.

    Maybe the grammar is relatively simple. But the vocabulary is vast. Latin is quite the opposite - a relatively complex grammar, but a relatively sparse vocabulary, which can mean that one word can have a lot of different meanings.
    English grammar is not "relatively simple", it is the simplest of all European languages.

    English is such a blurry language, it lacks so much accuracy and precision that indeed it needs a vast vocabulary to counterbalance it. Such is the burden of every isolating language, since synthetic ones can create their own words more easily (like in agglutinative languages), if necessary.
    That is the reason why Greek and German are perfectly suited for philosophy and new concepts, for instance, while English is clearly not.

    Also, if you want to have near-native skills of English, set phrases and collocations can make your life difficult. More than once I've thought I know almost nothing about English when I had to do translate seemingly simple texts. The hard part wasn't getting the meaning across, but not making it sound like a translation.
    Translating English is simple if you have the proper training. Believe me, I've translated even VERY complex texts written by American professors, and yet, it was far more simple than translating Mandarin or German.

    Trust my experience!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #72
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's curious to notice every native English speaker or almost want to think that English is a difficult language. Perhaps they think this fact could balance their monolinguism or their linguistic laziness?

    As many here already said, English is THE most simple Indo-European language, it's a no brainer. It's an isolating language where almost every other Indo-European languages are synthetic. And throughout history, English evolved as a kind of creole between many existing languages, especially Frisian/Plaatdeutsch and French. It was bound to become simpler and simpler with every new century.

    Many claim here that English has curious grammar rules, and exceptions everywhere. But frankly, believe me, but French, German, Hindi or Russian are INCREDIBLY more complex, and share A LOT more exceptions and grammatical oddities.
    Hence, English remains very easy to learn. It is very intuitive, even if it sorely lacks accuracy and sometimes subtlety. But nonetheless, it's nice to hear. And without it, we wouldn't be able to communicate with so many different people at once.

    English is not a language made for philosophy, diplomacy or deep thoughts, but nevertheless, English poetry is acceptable. It's a very useful tool, and I thank Englishmen to have invented it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Once again, ask ANY foreigner here.
    Nobody has ever said that English was difficult to learn. Whether we were Chinese, French, German, Hungarian, Italian Finnish, Korean, Sinhalese, or Japanese we ALL said the same thing. Can you wonder why?

    So, who will you trust?



    Well.

    An Isolating language tends to always have a one word per morpheme ratio, while in a synthetic one, the morphemes tend to be influenced by context, meaning or pronunciation.

    Check for instance Latin: you have specific grammatical cases (nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, genitive, vocative and so on), and depending of its genre and numbers, the entire word would vary accordingly (->Rosa; Rosa; Rosam; Rosae; Rosae; Rosa; Rosae; Rosae; Rosas; Rosarum; Rosis; Rosis). And it's the same with verb conjugation.

    Now, compare to English. The cases are almost non existent, and verbs are conjugated the same way whether you say "I", "you", "we" or "they" and so on. Plus, the variety of tenses are limited, and even if sometimes you can complain because you have to learn two or three roots, with Latin you would ALWAYS have to learn at least 5 or 6 of them, and for EACH verb (->Do, das, dare, dedi, datum)! The exceptions are always extremely weak, and tend to be suppressed with time and centuries. English subjunctive only exists as a tiny remnant of what it was a millenia ago (a joke, compared to French subjunctive!). Another example? For instance, to express plural form in English, you only add "s", or something like that according to its ending.
    Now, take Latin once again and compare!

    English is ridiculously simple! Like Esperanto or almost!

    It's a no brainer, really!
    Interesting thoughts. I guess it is intuitive but I never approach languages inuitively. I want some rules and logic that I can follow and despise exceptions. Of course if the rules become overly complex there is little benefit to that but still...

    Before travelling to the Israel I tried to learn Hebrew and Arabic. I loved Hebrew's logic, flow and straightforwardness but struggled with Arabic. Admittedly I put a lot more effort into Hebrew but this was more because it was more appealing to me. Arabic is so specific in pronounciation and grammar. In most cases where you were altering the word (eg. using plurals or changing tense etc) it seemed like 'you just have to know' each individual case. Maybe I needed to try harder with Arabic but I'm so discouraged when you have to memorize endless information to be able to use the language.

    I always think of English as a 'you just have to know' language - where most native speakers go on what sounds right. For example, creating an antonym of a word using a prefix (eg. prove - disprove). Depending on the word involved and the intended meaning, you will have to select one of these prefixes: dis-, im-, in-, ir-, ig-, ill-, un-, a-, ab-, mis-, non-, mal-, dys-, anti-, counter-... and I'm probably forgetting a few here. It would take a while for a non-native () speaker to get the feel for what seems right and in the mean time you have to memorize it. I would find that incredibly frustrating as I have a bad memory and would struggle to remember each individual case.

  3. #73
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I don't think so.

    Tu n'as clairement pas ide de la difficult intrinsque de ce que j'appellerais un franais d'excellence.
    With "good French", you would not only need outstanding grammar skills, but also vast vocabulary, creativity (to avoid repetition, since it is forbidden), and a perfect understanding of intrinsic rhymes and rythms of sentences. The tenses are so incredibly precise when they describe an action they can be very tricky to handle.

    There's nothing that can compare this in English, or even in German. It's why French is the language of international diplomacy par excellence.
    Careful, this smacks of a... oh, what's that good French word... chauvinisme?

    French was the language of diplomacy 50 years ago. Perhaps it's still as such within the EU, but then again, that's because France is one of the dipoles of the Union, and Brussels is a Francophone city. English is still the language of choice at the UN, for obvious reasons.

    English grammar is not "relatively simple", it is the simplest of all European languages.
    No such thing as a language with a more simple grammar than another. Try learning English if you grew up in an agglutinative language background (Japanese, for example, where they learn English from early on, but they still have very few fluent speakers). That level of analytic language is damn hard if you don't come from that background.

    English is such a blury language, it lacks so much accuracy and precision that indeed it needs a vast vocabulary to counterbalance it. Such is the burden of every isolating language, since synthetic one can create their own words more easily (like in agglutinative languages), if necessary.
    Umm, English does the same thing. Constantly. Haven't you heard all the jokes about verbing nouns?

    That is the reason why Greek and German are perfectly suited for philosophy and new concepts, for instance, while English is clearly not.
    And yet, the Academie Francaise (I'm not bothering with the diacritics) has to actively go out of its way to invent new computer and technology-based terms, because it fears the creeping influence of the Anglophonie.

    Translating English is simple if you have the proper training. Believe me, I've translated even VERY complex texts written by American professors, and yet, it was far more simple than translating Mandarin or German.

    Trust my experience!
    If you want word-to-word, maybe. However, how many of the idiomatic aspects of English is it easy to miss if you don't have a better-than-proficient grasp of it?

  4. #74
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I run
    I do run
    I am running
    I ran
    I have run
    I have been running
    I had been running
    I will/shall run
    I will/shall have run
    I will/shall be running
    I will/shall have been running
    I must run
    I must have run
    I must be running
    I must have been running

    All those tenses are the combination of a few different words... and they mean very different things. Combine that with the inflection associated with "to be" and "to have", and that most native speakers don't use these conjugations in their prescribed manner, and it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
    Frankly, you're wrong once again.
    Even if I try to translate your latest attempts, French is much, much, much, much more complex. ESPECIALLY French tenses and conjugation.

    Not only the same combinations you describe can be found in French, but we have a lot of additional tenses, and hence three or four times more possible combinations.

    For instance, try to accurately translate this:

    "Il eut fallu que nous eussions pu le faire."
    [Subjunctive imperfect + combination of auxiliaries "pouvoir" (can) and "faire" (do)]

    This sentence describes "a possibility that could have occured on a precise timing after a specific event in the past". Or you can say it conveys "the possibility of a unwanted regret".
    Such incredible nuances are impossible to translate in English, but in diplomacy, rhetoric or politics, they are incredibly helpful.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #75
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Frankly, you're wrong once again.
    Even if I try to translate latest attempts, French is much, much, much, much more complex. ESPECIALLY French tenses and conjugation.

    Not only the same combinations you describe can be found in French, but we have a lot of additional tenses, and hence three or four times more possible combinations.
    And yet... how many of those are found outside of literature?

    For instance, try to accurately translate this:

    "Il eut fallu que nous eussions pu le faire."
    [Subjunctive imperfect + combination of auxiliaries "pouvoir" (can) and "faire" (do)]

    This sentence describes "a possibility that could have occured on a precise timing after a specific event in the past". Or you can say it conveys "the possibility of a unwanted regret".
    Such incredible nuances are impossible to translate in English, but in diplomacy, rhetoric or politics, they are incredibly helpful.
    Sure they can. English has just as much nuance, if not more:

    "There's been a slight misunderstanding amongst our subordinates, and we're looking into getting everything taken care of," which actually means "Holy shit, we're fucked, and we're in major damage control mode right now, give us a little more time so we can get our shit in gear." You'd only know the difference from the plain text of the speech from the context of it.

    Hate to bust this out, but translate this for me:

    O conveys Blackacre to A for life, and if A does not have any children, to B and his heirs, but if A has any children, to A's children.

    I promise you, without legal training, you won't figure out half of what's going on there. The use of euphemism, jargon and surrounding rules to more diplomatically and technically convey a situation isn't exclusive to one language.

  6. #76
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Careful, this smacks of a... oh, what's that good French word... chauvinisme?
    Well, when you check the behavior of native English speaker here, I rather see a display of strong English chauvinism everywhere.

    You know the saying, my dear Onemoretime: "People who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones"...

    French was the language of diplomacy 50 years ago. Perhaps it's still as such within the EU, but then again, that's because France is one of the dipoles of the Union, and Brussels is a Francophone city. English is still the language of choice at the UN, for obvious reasons.
    And the obvious reason is that everybody could quickly learn it.
    Why is it so hard to understand it? Does this obvious fact hurts your linguistic pride? Why?

    Are you an NF or an NT? Be realistic!



    No such thing as a language with a more simple grammar than another. Try learning English if you grew up in an agglutinative language background (Japanese, for example, where they learn English from early on, but they still have very few fluent speakers). That level of analytic language is damn hard if you don't come from that background.
    Every language is hard to learn for a native Japanese. Not because English would be especially hard to understand, but because they lack the proper sounds (Japanese being the poorest language of mankind when it comes to the variety of sounds).



    Umm, English does the same thing. Constantly. Haven't you heard all the jokes about verbing nouns?
    Well. It's better to read that than to be blind... :rolli:

    Frankly, there's no possible comparison with German or Greek when you need to invent new concepts.

    And I presume you already know it, that you're just trying to childishly tease me.



    And yet, the Academie Francaise (I'm not bothering with the diacritics) has to actively go out of its way to invent new computer and technology-based terms, because it fears the creeping influence of the Anglophonie.
    Don't play this lame chauvinistic song with me, will you?
    Stereotypes and all possible cliches you have against Frenchmen will lead us to nowhere.

    The fact is I've learned English and many other languages. How many languages do you master, my dear Onemoretime?
    And here, I write in English too. And I like it.

    Did I already complain about English linguistic supremacy? Did Eck complain? Did any Frenchmen complain here?

    And yet, you dare to attack me on my so-called linguistic pride?

    It's the kettle calling the teapot black!


    If you want word-to-word, maybe. However, how many of the idiomatic aspects of English is it easy to miss if you don't have a better-than-proficient grasp of it?
    Do you really think I could be paid to translate James Corner, John Dixon Hunt, Ian McHarg or Denis Cosgrove "word-to-word" only?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #77
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And yet... how many of those are found outside of literature?
    In everyday life. You know, I'm the kind of guy who use subjunctive tenses even in oral form. And repetitions are still forbidden.

    Remember: I work in Academia.



    Sure they can. English has just as much nuance, if not more:

    "There's been a slight misunderstanding amongst our subordinates, and we're looking into getting everything taken care of," which actually means "Holy shit, we're fucked, and we're in major damage control mode right now, give us a little more time so we can get our shit in gear." You'd only know the difference from the plain text of the speech from the context of it.

    Hate to bust this out, but translate this for me:

    O conveys Blackacre to A for life, and if A does not have any children, to B and his heirs, but if A has any children, to A's children.

    I promise you, without legal training, you won't figure out half of what's going on there. The use of euphemism, jargon and surrounding rules to more diplomatically and technically convey a situation isn't exclusive to one language.
    It seems you haven't understood the slightest word of my argument. And I suspect you don't want to, that you're not interested to.

    I just showed you a tense that doesn't exist anywhere else, or almost. And a tense is not a jargon, a euphemism or even figures of speech. It's much more intrinsically blended into the language. And more than all, it's ACCURATE: even if it's subtle, there are no ambiguity about the situation it describes.

    I'm interested by FACTS. For instance, yes, French tenses are much more complex than English ones. Yes, English vocabulary is much more diverse than French one. Yes, German is more creative, and hence more suited for new concepts and philosophy. I don't care if you like any of these facts, since they are facts, and you are requested to be intellectually honest.

    So either you're playing a game, either you're blinded with stubborn linguistic arrogance.

    Either ways it's not worth continuing this discussion, when people aren't rational anymore.

    Don't waste my time. Don't waste our time.

    ----

    When you'll be serious once again, we will see.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #78
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, when you check the behavior of native English speaker here, I rather see a display of strong English chauvinism everywhere.

    You know the saying, my dear Jock: "People who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones"...
    Come now, certainly you know the difference between aggressive chauvinism and defense of disparaging comments, ca va?

    And the obvious reason is that everybody could quickly learn it.
    Why is it so hard to understand it? Does this obvious fact hurts your linguistic pride? Why?

    Are you an NF or an NT? Be realistic!
    It's the obvious reality that millions try to learn it with great difficulty. Are you an NT or an SJ?

    Every language is hard to learn for a native Japanese. Not because English would be especially hard to understand, but because they lack the proper sounds (Japanese being the poorest language of mankind when it comes to the variety of sounds).
    Come now, a lack of phonemes isn't that hard - they've got so many loanwords that even if they can't pronounce things exactly right, they can pronounce them close enough to be understood.

    It's that Japanese as an agglutinative language is so different from most other prominent languages, which tend to be analytic (English, Chinese) or synthetic (Romance languages, German)

    Well. It's better to read that than to be blind... :rolli:

    Frankly, there's no possible comparison with German or Greek when you need to invent new concepts.

    And I presume you already know it, that you're just trying to childishly tease me.
    Maybe 100 years ago. Nowadays, all the Greek-Latin mashups are usually English speakers coining the words, not because they're easier, but because Greek and Latin have an air of dignity to them. It's about nothing but the snob appeal, just as it has been since those damned Norwegian rejects invaded Anglia. If English speakers use foreign words a lot, it's not because English doesn't have words for the concepts, it's just that we like exotic-sounding foreign words.

    Meanwhile, I'm speaking to you on a message board, which is connected to a large network of servers, which constitutes the backbone of the internet. All words of both Germanic and Romance origin, which were essentially part of the existing English language before being thrown together for new uses.

    Don't play this lame chauvinistic song with me, will you?
    Stereotypes and every possible cliches you have against Frenchmen will lead us to nowhere.
    Am I inaccurate in this statement? (Note, I know plenty of people from France, who use the normal English terms in regard to computing).

    The fact is I've learned English and many other languages. How many languages do you master, my dear Jock?
    And here, I write in English too. And I like it.
    For one, check who you're talking to.

    For another, I know Spanish and am learning French in my spare time.
    And finally, your proficiency with English is noted.

    Did I already complain about English linguistic supremacy? Did Eck complain? Did any Frenchmen complain here?

    And yet, you dare to attack me on my so-called linguistic pride?

    It's the kettle calling the teapot black!
    Amazing how you categorize the criticism into your own little box.

    I have no problem with someone saying French is a great language, and a good one for diplomacy at that. I have a big problem with someone saying it's a better language, because the last 40 years of linguistics has been about getting over that nonsense. Any idea in any form can be expressed in any language on this planet effectively. French isn't effective for diplomacy because it's better at it, it's effective because it's been used for diplomacy since Louis XIV! Of course you'll develop a strong contextual framework and jargon over the course of 250+ years! In much the same way, so English is developing within diplomatic circles. It doesn't hurt that diplomats representing over 1 billion native and secondary English speakers develop the language every day - but as you note, French didn't need nearly as many to develop its own nuance.

    Do you really think I could be paid to translate James Corner, John Dixon Hunt or Denis Cosgrove "word-to-word" only?
    Do you think the average student of English would understand most of our idioms without a broad basis of context?

  9. #79
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In everyday life. You know, I'm the kind of guy who use subjunctive tenses even in oral form. And repetitions are still forbidden.

    Remember: I work in Academia.
    Pedantry doesn't win arguments. It simply makes you look like a pedant.

    It seems you haven't understood the slightest word of my argument. And I suspect you don't want to, that you're not interested to.

    I just showed you a tense that doesn't exist anywhere else, or almost. And a tense is not a jargon, a euphemism or even figures of speech. It's much more intrinsically blended into the language. And more than all, it's ACCURATE: even if it's subtle, there are no ambiguity about the situation it describes.
    Not only that, but tense also is generally unnecessary to get across the idea of what a speaker is trying to convey, because body language and other contextual clues provide that information. That's why a person's speaking vocabulary is so much less than their writing vocabulary - you don't need as many words to get across the same concepts.

    I'm interested by FACTS. For instance, yes, French tenses are much more complex than English ones. Yes, English vocabulary is much more diverse than French one. Yes, German is more creative, and hence more suited for new concepts and philosophy. I don't care if you like any of these facts, since they are facts, and you are requested to be intellectually honest.
    And the FACT is that you'd find yourself in the minority of linguists in that view. French tenses are much more highly inflected than English ones. There's no arguing that point. More complex? Lots of argument there - because you're now arguing the entirety of syntax, and not simply a comparison of morphemes. What French does in a single word, English requires an entire shift in sentence structure. Both are very complex.

    German as more complex? Maybe, if you find synthetic languages to be more complex (because French and English are both highly analytic languages). To a Finn, the analytic languages would be more complex and creative, because the workarounds necessary to convey an idea are less apparent. Zeitgeist isn't "better" than "spirit of the times" because one is a single "word" while the other is a "phrase"... and in English, both have their different contextual meanings.

    So either you're playing a game, either you're blinded with stubborn linguistic arrogance.

    Either ways it's not worth continuing this discussion, when people aren't rational anymore.

    Don't waste my time.

    ----

    When you'll be serious once again, we will see.
    My Lord, the projection on this board is certainly the most amusing aspect of it.

  10. #80
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I don't think so.
    With "good French", you would not only need outstanding grammar skills, but also vast vocabulary, creativity (to avoid repetition, since it is forbidden), and a perfect understanding of intrinsic rhymes and rythms of sentences.

    The tenses are so incredibly precise when they describe an action they can be very tricky to handle.

    There's nothing that can compare this in English, or even in German. It's why French is the language of international diplomacy par excellence.
    The English tense system is in fact very complex, but I don't think it has anything that French hasn't (off the top of my head).
    On the other hand, when it comes to tenses, German can be horribly blurry and still gramatically correct at the same time.

    English grammar is not "relatively simple", it is the simplest of all European languages.
    If it's simple in relation to every other European language, it is in fact the simplest.

    English is such a blury language, it lacks so much accuracy and precision that indeed it needs a vast vocabulary to counterbalance it. Such is the burden of every isolating language, since synthetic one can create their own words more easily (like in agglutinative languages), if necessary.
    That is the reason why Greek and German are perfectly suited for philosophy and new concepts, for instance, while English is clearly not.
    Different means, same result I should say. Simple grammar only means less structural flexibility, though a vast vocabulary can counterbalance that quite well. It might not be the most elegant way of reaching precision, but I think it works for the greatest part.
    And on a side note, I'm still baffled by the fact that knowledge of Ancient Greek was nearly lost during the Middle Ages in spite of all the theological and philosophical debates.

    Translating English is simple if you have the proper training. Believe me, I've translated even VERY complex texts written by American professors, and yet, it was far more simple than translating Mandarin or German.
    I actually find it easier to translate complex texts, for the most part. What sometimes almost made me despair was translating passages with lots of colloquial speech, as in books or films. It makes sense since the lower you get in register, the less fixed the language becomes.

    On a more general note, I think that the content of a text can be almost always translated from one language into another. Intrinsic rhymes and rhythms of sentences, as you have put it very well, are where it gets tricky indeed. Every language has a certain cadence and an inner tension. Some languages allow for a greater variety in these aspects, some - like English - have to achieve variety in other ways. And the mere physical sound of a language is something that is often impossible translate, and it can be very important, especially if language is employed in a way that makes use of these means like e.g. poetry and fiction.

    Trust my experience!
    I do! After all, you've had a couple of years more to hone your skills
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

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