User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 11

  1. #1
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    10
    Posts
    2,233

    Thumbs up Science of Arguing?

    In the recent years, I've come to terms with my weakness in participating and formulating arguments. What I do now is become an observer of arguments to hopefully piece together some knowledge on becoming better at it myself, but I'm still lost most of the time. Before I would usually base my arguments on very ill-defined Fi spills, where I reach inward toward my principles and sort of expose them for others to see. Which is well and good and all, but I could not explain how I came to support that principle. Sort of like having straw-house arguments. They might have looked presentable at a glance but any sort of logic could dissect them and blow them down, which is frustrating. Frustrated feelers can sometimes go on besides-the-fact trips and disrupt the fair atmosphere of arguing (appealing to emotions, taking cheap shots, looking like a moron, etc.).

    I've identified that as a problem I have. As I said, I now usually take the observer/fence-rider stance to prevent the Fi breakdowns and winding up feeling out-witted and frustrated. But I'd rather be able to actively participate without ending up burned or un-prepared.

    What can one do to better themselves at formulating arguments, and analyzing and dissecting others'? What do you good arguers look for in an argument? What do you present and how? What are the essentials for making your point seem valid and respectable?

  2. #2
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/so
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,927

    Default

    Wow. What a great question.

    I grew up with a very confrontational ESTJ Army Colonel for a father. My Dad is without a doubt the most hostile and opinionated person I've met. He is also quite intelligent and logical.

    So, I grew up watching him chew people out at every imaginable venue in life. Toll booth collectors, his direct reports, our neighbors, family members, the priniple of my school, no one was safe. If you pissed him off or screwed up and he found out you would hear about it, guaranteed. Of course I got reemed by him on countless occasions, and in the process I kept getting better and better at defending myself.

    At some point in my life, my early twenties, I realized that I was not afraid to confront anybody about anything. Growing up with my Dad prepared me to argue with the best, or if I wish chew someone out for being an idiot.

    Maybe you need to find a really hostile, type A, confrontational person and just hang out with them for awhile. Serioulsy.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    SEXY
    Posts
    1,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adoamros View Post
    In the recent years, I've come to terms with my weakness in participating and formulating arguments. What I do now is become an observer of arguments to hopefully piece together some knowledge on becoming better at it myself, but I'm still lost most of the time. Before I would usually base my arguments on very ill-defined Fi spills, where I reach inward toward my principles and sort of expose them for others to see. Which is well and good and all, but I could not explain how I came to support that principle. Sort of like having straw-house arguments. They might have looked presentable at a glance but any sort of logic could dissect them and blow them down, which is frustrating. Frustrated feelers can sometimes go on besides-the-fact trips and disrupt the fair atmosphere of arguing (appealing to emotions, taking cheap shots, looking like a moron, etc.).

    I've identified that as a problem I have. As I said, I now usually take the observer/fence-rider stance to prevent the Fi breakdowns and winding up feeling out-witted and frustrated. But I'd rather be able to actively participate without ending up burned or un-prepared.

    What can one do to better themselves at formulating arguments, and analyzing and dissecting others'? What do you good arguers look for in an argument? What do you present and how? What are the essentials for making your point seem valid and respectable?
    Well, you start out by saying that your arguments are Fi based and that you can't support them logically to other people. To tackle this you should develop a form of Ti that can analyse your arguments and feelings. Basically, always ask yourself why (and if you actually want something done, also how). You think something about anything? Why? You have a feeling that something is not right? Why? That way you can figure out what the underlying structures of your arguments are and you can explain that.

    As for the debating itself, you can learn skills to get better in the debating itself. Like Halla74 said, experience is a great teacher, if you don't want to go to the extreme and hang around with people you'll probably not like, you could always go to an amateur debate club, or get books or info on debating skills.

  4. #4
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,540

    Default

    If you want to persuade others, you can't do better than Rhetoric.

    Rhetoric was part of the Roman Trivium of Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric, and of which Rhetoric was the greatest.

    Today the word, 'rhetoric', is only used pejoratively, yet Rhetoric is used in all parts of modern life from politics to advertising, from propaganda to the pulpit.

    So a good place to start is with the Ancient Greeks and Romans and listen to what they have to teach about Rhetoric. And then you might move onto what the Moderns have to teach us about propaganda - all truly eye-opening.

    And only then will you become truly dangerous.

  5. #5
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    xxxx
    Posts
    1,256

    Default

    ART of Arguing, not science.

    I'd start there.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    entp
    Posts
    1,190

    Default

    why is someone making the point they are
    its all in the motivation of the person....and this is not as easy to decipher as it might seem at first as different personalities result in people having same actions but different reasons for the actions

    then you can fine tune your moto-meter by observing the language they use...do they give certain preference to certain words? is it obvious why they would do so?

    you can use your consciously to an internal framework of each arguement or each person or however you see fit....in theory anyways

  7. #7
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Its not hard once you realize that all it takes is learning to argue as an uninterested third party.


    Becoming flummoxed in an argument is not an issue of intelligence usually. Usually, its a reaction resulting from taking something the opposing party says as a personal attack on you, or your belief system.

    The sooner you learn to argue dispassionately the better.

    "If you want truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."
    - Sent-ts'an -

  8. #8
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    *goes to bookshelf*

    Start with the following:

    A Rulebook for Arguments, Anthony Weston.
    Artful Persuasion, Harry Mills.
    Propaganda and Persuasion, Garth Jowett (Anything by him, actually).
    Don't Think of an Elephant, Lakoff.


    After that, I'll direct you to a few advanced pieces by Bertrand Russell.


    Happy reading!
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  9. #9
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    *goes to bookshelf*

    Start with the following:

    A Rulebook for Arguments, Anthony Weston.
    Artful Persuasion, Harry Mills.
    Propaganda and Persuasion, Garth Jowett (Anything by him, actually).
    Don't Think of an Elephant, Lakoff.


    After that, I'll direct you to a few advanced pieces by Bertrand Russell.


    Happy reading!
    I really can't recommend the Rulebook for Arguments book enough. I always make my students read it when we talk about argument.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #10
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ?
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    780

    Default

    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
    Ti
    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

Similar Threads

  1. The science of love
    By clandestine in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-29-2013, 06:14 AM
  2. The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science
    By Magic Poriferan in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-01-2011, 12:56 AM
  3. The science of heartlessness
    By Vasilisa in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-14-2011, 10:18 AM
  4. The suprising science of motivation
    By Tantive in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-01-2010, 07:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO