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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Keirsey's Please Understand Me II is pretty much the manual for the MBTI in any college Personality Theory course. Most of the online descriptions are based or even copied word for word from that book. Is it his descriptions that you have issue with?
    Ah, reminds me why I dropped out of psychology.

    The manual, atlas and such that I refer to are the clinicians books from CAPT. Yes, I do take exception to many of Keirsey's descriptions... and also note that his version of "MBTI" is not MBTI. MBTI is built upon Jung's theories and Keirsey has his own temperament theories. I also blame him for the continuing statistics mistakes being made (most notably, the E:I 70%:30%). But I suppose most problems between the two are the same, just with a whole lot more data and people working on the core MBTI instrument to offset some of it. Step III from MBTI might change a lot of that too, as the factor analysis for Step II did.

    I love his description of ISTPs Especially as a rather extreme introvert. I think that is the largest breakdown between Keirsey - he stereotypes ISTP from the SP traits while MBTI stereotypes from the ST traits (ie: free action without thought vs thought for measuring actions).

    I wish I'd started with FFM rather than the rest of the crap I got stuffed with. I shoulda headed for the hard sciences from the start I actually enjoy reading FFM research and do it as a hobby now!

    If your main issue is with online stereotyping then I don't think you are going to make much progress. If these forums are any indication, then people who spend most their time on the internet and are interested in this topic are usually of the INXX variety. And from all the threads I have read, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that an N type usually doesn't cope with the real world as well as a sensor would. So it makes sense to me that since sensors own N types in the real world, that here on the internet there would be some temptation to even the score.
    Hmmm... this is exactly what I'm talking about. How do you show that Ss own Ns in the real world...? In what way? Certainly not academically... or financially... or work wise... not even relationship wise. In fact, in nearly every category, Ns manage to outshine Ss (although we get into a distribution problem here... so can interpret it as "much better than most of the population" perhaps).

    That's why the manual and the statistics from CAPT are so important.

    If there is one semi-valid point in type, as far as that line of thought goes, it's that Ps get screwed, or if you want to stretch if really far and include just general work success, maybe Fs (although this is very industry based).

    What you are hearing is that Ns are smarter and more open. Those are the real complaints, but hidden behind the surface. That's why arrogance, elitism and all that come up all the time. Problem is, there is roughly the same amount of high IQ Ss as Ns, but there is a huge gap between low IQ Ns and low IQ Ss... namely that there are very few below average Ns. Narrow description of "good stuff" for Ns and a very broad and inaccurate description for Ss emerges.

    As far as I'm concerned, Keirsey perpetuates the low end of the Ss far far more than MBTI does, and that leads to a very misleading impression of Ss as a whole.

    --

    Anyway, this is a rather large aside - I don't mind talking about it, but I've been previously told to keep it down. For anyone who really enjoys this kind of a talk, I'm all for it... but it's probably not a good place here.

  2. #22
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Well I understand your complaint, but there isn't too much we can do about it. If you would like to propose some solutions then I always love to brainstorm. However, all I can think of is allowing every type to write about themselves and then creating descriptions from those. Even then I doubt they would be very indicative since there is so much variety in each type and many of the people here type themselves.

    To be honest I take all of this worth a grain of salt because it's all theory. I'm sure no one means to cause anyone personal distress when they rant about the negative traits associated with other types. People just have different ways of perceiving this information and some can take it quite literally while others are just thinking abstractly. Like GZA said, it really comes down to showing each other respect for our differences. Having a biased or elitist attitude just means we miss out on the insight of different people, and we lose our chance to see the world through their eyes. That is why I'm here and not so much on that "other forum".

  3. #23
    Senior Member developer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    Friend: I like developer's post


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    Thank you! Please sign up, so we can hear more from you!

  4. #24
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Your friend should sign up, in my opinion. S/he had nothing to do with the past.

    Wait, what did I say? ;)

    That aside, I do think s/he should join.
    Not really.

  5. #25
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Your friend should sign up, in my opinion. S/he had nothing to do with the past.

    Wait, what did I say?

    That aside, I do think s/he should join.
    Are you saying she has any reason to expect that the future will be different?

  6. #26
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    No, I mean something else entirely. Yay for abstract messages!

    (If you're wondering, no, the meaning doesn't contain slights against your friend. I personally would welcome her as I would do so for any type.)
    Not really.

  7. #27
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    No, I mean something else entirely. Yay for abstract messages!
    So what did you mean?

  8. #28
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    So what did you mean?
    A sudden, brilliant insight has revealed its meaning to you.
    Let us hope the others won't lag behind. :)
    Not really.

  9. #29
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    ISFJs tend to be ultra-sensitive to other people's feelings and can get offended or hurt on behalf of other people, so as long as there is ONE human being who is being insulted on this forum, this ISFJ friend probably won't be happy here.

    But ISFJs are really nice people and it would be nice to have him/her partake in the discussions.

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