User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 29

  1. #11
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    It would be better if she got on here and showed us the positive aspects of the type rather than not coming for fear of being looked down on. (for the record, though, I like ISFJs)
    I think what is missing is the concept that she won't be bothered to do that. She clearly has nothing to prove - why enter into a hostile area just to show how good some abstract box they've put you in isn't deserved? It's their problem, not yours. The problem doesn't lie in the lack of Ss to generate a new stereotype; the lack of Ss lies in in the problem of existing stereotypes. She can't change that, and taking the time to do so offers no benefit to her.

    (Although I agree it'd be nice to get some balance, but this isn't a chicken-egg argument. The chicken is a mutant blood sucking animal going around eating chicks... It's hard to blame the egg for not hatching!)

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    ptgatsby, you offer criticism without solutions. If you want to do something, do it and quit giving everyone a guilt trip about wanting to use or build on existing theory simply because you don't think it's good or unbiased enough. If you have a better system, present it already.

    Sorry, this has been building up for a while. I like you as a person, but don't understand a lot of your ideas and criticisms.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    What a bummer. We have some fantastic Sensor contributors. I'd love having more. But having been a member of a forum that is somewhat hostile to my type for several years, I can see why someone would forgo the experience.

    It's very hard to know how to address the problem, but I think brainstorming about it is one step in the right direction.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    3,272

    Default

    Harassment of minority groups/ inequality issues are quite difficult to solve, but not impossible.

    We often feel the justified need to comment on what we see as bad ideas or bad behavior. I am one of those mostly critical persons, and I need to take bigger share of the blame for myself.

    When we do criticize, we would do well not to be guilty of the Fundamental attribution error - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: explaining too much on the basis of persons "type" and understanding too little of their situations. I understand it's against our habits as typewatchers; but wouldn't it be good not to fall into biased thinking? I would do well to take my own advice, and not to dismiss some "bad behaviour" as "typical type WXYZ thing".

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    ptgatsby, you offer criticism without solutions. If you want to do something, do it and quit giving everyone a guilt trip about wanting to use or build on existing theory simply because you don't think it's good or unbiased enough. If you have a better system, present it already.

    Sorry, this has been building up for a while. I like you as a person, but don't understand a lot of your ideas and criticisms.
    Hmmm, we probably misunderstand each other. The problem isn't with MBTI, it's with the people using it... or rather, not using it. No one here talks about MBTI, the actual instrument. They talk about the stereotyped descriptions. Almost no one has a MBTI Manual or MBTI Applications, no real grounding in the instrument itself.

    However, I think the criticism is probably warranted. I made an effort to stop discussing MBTI entirely, which I thought I had... but I'll make sure that I'm more careful in the future.

    (FWIW, I think I have presented plenty of other systems, which normally involves me being told to shut up and talk about MBTI. )

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmmm, we probably misunderstand each other. The problem isn't with MBTI, it's with the people using it... or rather, not using it. No one here talks about MBTI, the actual instrument. They talk about the stereotyped descriptions. Almost no one has a MBTI Manual or MBTI Applications, no real grounding in the instrument itself.

    However, I think the criticism is probably warranted. I made an effort to stop discussing MBTI entirely, which I thought I had... but I'll make sure that I'm more careful in the future.

    (FWIW, I think I have presented plenty of other systems, which normally involves me being told to shut up and talk about MBTI. )
    Oh, okay. It makes sense now. So you believe the FFM and such are better systems, and that's why you talk about them... and about how MBTI doesn't include a scale for Neuroticism. Although I disagree that openness to experience is precisely N vs. S.

    I guess I just like to talk about things in terms of theories whether they're realistic or not. I like fantasies, daydreams, and horoscopes as well, and I guess this is kind of in the same realm as that for me.

  7. #17
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    OMNi
    Posts
    2,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmmm, we probably misunderstand each other. The problem isn't with MBTI, it's with the people using it... or rather, not using it. No one here talks about MBTI, the actual instrument. They talk about the stereotyped descriptions. Almost no one has a MBTI Manual or MBTI Applications, no real grounding in the instrument itself.

    However, I think the criticism is probably warranted. I made an effort to stop discussing MBTI entirely, which I thought I had... but I'll make sure that I'm more careful in the future.

    (FWIW, I think I have presented plenty of other systems, which normally involves me being told to shut up and talk about MBTI. )


    Keirsey's Please Understand Me II is pretty much the manual for the MBTI in any college Personality Theory course. Most of the online descriptions are based or even copied word for word from that book. Is it his descriptions that you have issue with?

    If your main issue is with online stereotyping then I don't think you are going to make much progress. If these forums are any indication, then people who spend most their time on the internet and are interested in this topic are usually of the INXX variety. And from all the threads I have read, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that an N type usually doesn't cope with the real world as well as a sensor would. So it makes sense to me that since sensors own N types in the real world, that here on the internet there would be some temptation to even the score.

  8. #18
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    It's not surprising and I've thought the same things quite often. But sensers aren't the only ones that get hit - my type gets hit quite a bit and seems to suffer quite a negative image on here, usually being stereotyped as selfish, arrogant, manipulative, vain and shallow and though I know I sometimes do myself no favours because I play up to the image at times, I still find it quite irritating when I read such twaddle as this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tayshaun View Post
    None are quintessential Prometheans, but ENTP is closest. The desire to understand the skill and master it is mostly selfish, but it sometimes entails Progress in the Humanistic sense, even if unintended.
    Which, I don't mean to pick on Tayshuan cos he's usually pretty cool, but this comment is pretty representative of the attitude of the board towards ENTP's, as if none of us are capable of having a decent bone in our bodies, but they generously concede that we might accidentally sometimes do some good in the world!

    I don't mean to sound like I'm turning this to being all about me, I'm just kinda saying that I agree that there's a lot of prejudice and bitterness against certain types, and that it's not surprising really considering that the majority of the board are INTP's who I guess, if we're gonna generalise, have a kind of vested interest in grudges against sensers and extraverts...

    If the issue is ever going to be addressed in a more balanced way then we need to attract a greater balance of different types, which is a vicious circle really cos until that balance is reached, other types will not be attracted.

    Oh, and FWIW pt, people were nicer to me when I thought I was INTP...

    It really isn't just sensers that get it, it's extraverts too, so I sympathise greatly with your rant! I get sick of hearing introverts going on and on so authoratively, these people who've always made a point of spending as little time as possible around as few people as possible, pontificating on what extraverts think, how we feel, our motives, what we think of them and why we're so 'obnoxious' etc etc... It's the reason why I often take long breaks from the board too.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Oh, okay. It makes sense now. So you believe the FFM and such are better systems, and that's why you talk about them... and about how MBTI doesn't include a scale for Neuroticism. Although I disagree that openness to experience is precisely N vs. S.
    I think each system has its limits. When I interject Neuroticism, it is almost always to replace the misallocation of behaviour to "F" (and sometime E/I.)

    That, and I don't have a fortune to spend on CAPT research and most of the research outside of CPP/CAPT is done with FFM... often meaning it is no answer/bad answer or correlate it to whatever the research was done in.

    I don't actually have a preference of one over the other, exactly. The problems for me start when MBTI isn't backed up by research that we have access to and the FFM is. I draw upon FFM to knock back the stereotypes, but as your reaction says, and I said in my OP, I can't be the one to write it because I always come across like I'm attacking MBTI. That'd be... uhh... less than helpful, obviously

    I think all of the MBTI and FFM correlations are suspect, except where they connect on the base test (This document/thread).

    I guess I just like to talk about things in terms of theories whether they're realistic or not. I like fantasies, daydreams, and horoscopes as well, and I guess this is kind of in the same realm as that for me.
    Probably why we are so very very opposite. The only point that I really draw the line... and probably go overboard is when people are prejudged as a result of any instrument, most notable self-selecting instruments.

  10. #20
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    infp
    Posts
    1,771

    Default

    I think we need to make sure we give the propor appreciation to sensors. I think that looking at all the personalities you can see that they all come together, they all form a cycle. They all rely on one another -without the prescence of all of them, they can't work. They collectively form a thriving and efficient society. We need to praise all the types for their positive qualities and we need to also realize that every type has their problems. I think in many of the "problems" with a lot of types, there is actually something very good hidden anyway. For example, sensors may seem narrow minded, in theory, but of course that directness is crucial in many situations, and can certainly be a positive thing. My point is that we all need eachother, and we all need to give eachother the due respect.

Similar Threads

  1. Check out google.com today
    By gromit in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 09-08-2010, 12:41 AM
  2. Check out my Socionics test
    By 527468 in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 02-05-2010, 11:01 AM
  3. Check Out My Big Cleaty Mitt!
    By Oberon in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-28-2009, 11:53 AM
  4. Check out my sweet ______
    By Bamboo in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 05-27-2009, 01:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO