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  1. #41
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    No.
    People do not have to worry about a thing.

    I never worry.
    Why?
    The answer:
    I do not have to.
    Why?
    The answer:

    I PAY THE DOUBLE PRICE.

    Ain't that the truth.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #42
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Ain't that the truth.
    Only if you like coffee.

  3. #43
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    From what I understand Mycroft to be saying, there are ALWAYS strings and dichotomies attached to EVERYTHING. You may not think the strings exists, you may think you've cut them away, they may be light and spindly or they may be clanking chains, but they're always there.
    Precisely. My point was that it's important to consciously acknowledge this reality. When one begins to think of himself as "generous by nature", he risks treading into dangerous territory, where this reality becomes pushed outside the sphere of conscious thought.

    In very extreme cases, it is precisely this sort of man who can commit all nature of atrocities yet sleep easily at night, secure in his own "goodness".
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #44
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I was just talking about this in another thread. It's interesting that what I just wrote applies here as well. I'll just cross-post, because I'm lazy:

    I think that taking care of yourself is often considered selfish. I grew up believing it, and I wanted to appear the opposite of selfish, so I behaved very kindly and compassionately toward others. I gave love to get love, in essence, because I couldn't attend to my own needs. I secretly treated people the way I wanted to be treated, hoping they'd return the kindness. It's not bad to treat people kindly, but it is bad to need their kindness to be happy, and for most of my life I did. I was malnourished internally, emotionally and psychologically, because I depended on others, like a flower in the shade.
    My self-image was of the kind, selfless human being, and I felt worthless if I didn't appear that way. I felt that being kind and loving was the only way to get love, and I was only as worthy as the amount of love and appreciation and praise I received on any given day. It was a trade-off that I wasn't even conscious of, believe it or not. The irony of the selfless self-image I presented is that my focus was essentially on myself. Mycroft is definitely describing my personality type when he says that creating a self-image around how kind you are means that you NEED to be kind to feel good and worthwhile. It's like an intelligent person who takes pride in their intelligence. I took pride in my kindness. It's called vainglory, and it is a very sly and deceitful vice.

    You can sense with unhealthy people of my personality that they're a bit "off," even though they appear to be the cheeriest people around. They're always chipper and pleasant, but you wonder why they take such an interest in you and are so complimentary and effusive of "pleasers." It's because they're protecting themselves from rejection by trying to appear to be the kindest, sweetest, most loveable person they can. They're functioning with a low level of self-esteem, and they feel that if they weren't happy and in a good mood all the time, people would not accept them, and they're only as good as people's praise. Their egos won't allow them to be selfish at all, because their fragile self-esteem depends on be selfless and giving (these traits make them more loveable, in their minds). The person is not even there or "present"; they're made up entirely of their ego. Secretly, they're ignoring their own needs and focusing on others in the hopes that others will meet the needs they've been neglecting.

    The essential problem of my personality type (type two on the enneagram) is that we feel that we wouldn't be accepted for who we really are, so we mask our true feelings, thinking that the selfless self-image we've created will be more acceptable than our authentic selves. It is an act, and I think that's what Mycroft is referring to.

    However, I think that when someone does take care of their own needs rather than hoping and praying that others will rescue them or take care of them, they're much more satisfied and fulfilled. The happiness they radiate probably does touch others because they're in a good mood, and they're in a good mood not because their self-image depends on it, but because they accept themselves as they are, take care of themselves, and feel independent from everyone else. They feel strong. They're free to make friends or not, be helpful or not, and be genuinely disinterested. That, I think, is when they're truly helpful and generous to others. They don't give to get, but they may choose to share their inner bounty because it increases their enjoyment of life. Even if they're not traditionally generous, simply by being themselves and being balanced they can share the fun they have in life with others.

    (I'm talking about type twos on the enneagram, by the way.)

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Well, if you pay a double price for your coffee is not exactly what I should call an atrocity.

    If you have insomnia, pay triple. Big deal.

  6. #46
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Precisely. My point was that it's important to consciously acknowledge this reality. When one begins to think of himself as "generous by nature", he risks treading into dangerous territory, where this reality becomes pushed outside the sphere of conscious thought.

    In very extreme cases, it is precisely this sort of man who can commit all nature of atrocities yet sleep easily at night, secure in his own "goodness".
    ding ding ding

    In the long run, we're all dead, so why wasting my time thinking about this stuff, instead of thinking about stuff that can actually make my life better?

    Also why isn't recognized the possible aim of the happiness derived from seeing another person being happy?

  7. #47
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I must have missed this part if you mentioned it before...

    I never looked at a typical ENTP as subscribing to any sort of religious doctrine...
    I think you might be wrong there... those with strong Ne cannot help but realise that there must be "something out there". And of course, my retarded Si could use all the help it can get, and high church traditions are a veritable Si feast! Plus the fact that I've found Si to be a very effective route for the strong T into Feeling. All in all, it makes a human being out of me

    I wouldn't say that the doctrine was my main focus. I'm flexible and unorthodox in the extreme when it comes to doctrine and seem to be constantly ruffling feathers because of this. But the traditions, the rituals and sacraments are very much what the doctor ordered for me, and I'm loyal to those to the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    When one begins to think of himself as "generous by nature", he risks treading into dangerous territory, where this reality becomes pushed outside the sphere of conscious thought.

    In very extreme cases, it is precisely this sort of man who can commit all nature of atrocities yet sleep easily at night, secure in his own "goodness".
    Simply appropriating, for linguistic and communicative convenience, a 'label' that has been applied to oneself by others is quite a different thing to what one thinks of oneself. If a white guy who is six foot three grew up in China and, on describing himself to other Chinese people said, "I'm extremely tall", it doesn't necessarily mean that he believes himself to be freakishly tall for his race - he's simply using the reference points of the majority in order to create a workable description for those who don't have the opportunity to observe for themselves. Similarly, the fact that I've been repeatedly called 'generous by nature' by the people around me, and that I appropriate that label for the purpose of explaining my behaviour and thought patterns to those who don't have the opportunity to observe them for themselves, doesn't necessarily mean that I think of myself as being particularly more generous than anyone else.

    Also, I don't see how it can be claimed that anyone who has a positive self-image of themselves as a benevolent person is a tyrant in the making... seems a bit absurd to me, almost like you're suggesting that the only 'decent' people are those with a very negative self-image. Though in a way these two opposing standpoints can be reconciled by those religious teachings such as the idea that, although we as humans are, in the scheme of things, lower that worms and utterly worthless, we are at the same time worth so much in the eyes of God that he died for us on the cross. Thereby we confess ourselves to be of great worth, but only because God, in his grace, esteems us so and not because we actually are in our own right. Therefore we continue to struggle to behave in a way that pleases God, wanting to make ourselves a tiny bit more worthy of the great love he has for us. In this way, the generous and benevolent behaviour issues not out of ego, but soul, and is therefore entirely different from the kind that spawns tyrants and despots, as you describe.

    I concede that many people here are non-religious and therefore will trash all that I just said and not see it as applicable to them. But I wasn't applying it to them - I was just explaining myself.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    All in all, it makes a human being out of me
    Who says being human is a good thing?

    I'm superhuman.

  9. #49
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I never worry.
    Why?
    The answer:
    I do not have to.
    Why?
    The answer:

    I PAY THE DOUBLE PRICE.
    I just chose to live in a country where good service is a matter of course.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #50
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I just chose to live in a country where good service is a matter of course.
    Wakarimashita.

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