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  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah really I don't feel the need anymore to explain myself to people that say we should be wary of giving things to other, we should treat women bad to make them fall in love with us, we should check the trustworthiness of everybody before trusting them, we should use the helmet while biking downhill...:steam: :steam: :steam: :steam: :steam:
    Hahahaha.... yeah... I think it's often just that the capitalist mentality has been bred into Westerners so much now that it's almost hard wired in a lot of people. Of course capitalism doesn't want us to share - sharing means that an entire block of apartments can be full of neighbours who get along and scratch each other's backs and borrow each other's tools and appliances. How would that benefit capitalism? Surely it's better for the economy to have everyone isolated in their little cells, distrusting their neighbours and being fiercely independent, so that every one of those cells has to have a drill each, a chainsaw each, a washing machine each - people Sell More Stuff that way.

    But I try, y'know? I try... I suppose it's just hard for an ENTP to accept that there might be some things that I alone can't 'improve' and sometimes you just have to shrug and walk away and say 'your funeral, mate'.

    It's just really hard to do this when it's people deliberately making their world cold and spreading that coldness to others. Sometimes it just triggers my counterculture chip, and that's the Franciscan in me.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I must be one of those unfortunate cynics. I think it's very important to understand the ramifications of giving/receiving and how debt can arise from generosity.

    Not everyone has a pure heart and all I'm reading is people saying they have pure hearts when they give, never (or rarely) secretly hoping that the favor may be returned. I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. I'm always aware of what I'm doing when I'm being generous. I try not to give expecting anything back, but I'm just too aware of when I'm doing it to have my hands clean. I'm not trying to project, but I would think twice if I encountered an especially generous person and wonder what their motives are.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Sometimes people are generous because they have a lower self-esteem. They feel that people won't like them unless they give them stuff. I had a dear, elderly friend who functioned somewhat in this way. I did feel it necessary to refuse some gifts or explicitly say that i felt concerned it was too much. Sometimes she would also ask for favors. I'm guessing some people would get tangled into a complex web of feeling debt. I really didn't feel indebted because i would draw the line accepting gifts where it felt i should, and i actually liked this lady and so would give back as i wanted to. It can actually work when motives are kept pure and people think the best of others. I have learned to not allow people to be someone i don't like. I create whatever boundaries i need to sincerely like them. I don't answer the phone or say yes to a shopping trip if i know it would cause me feelings of resentment and pressuring. That way when we spend time together it is sincere and they never have to worry about imposing on me.

    Each person is responsible for their own space.

    Professionally i have had problems related to generosity. I moved to a small town as an outsider and presented myself as somewhat generous. It was my way of extending a certain professional trust and to show interest in the community. People responded by exploiting me - crazy, extreme exploiting. I had to resign from a couple of jobs because it was so extreme. I had a couple of freelance situations where i reduced a price because the individual had a financial emergency, and then they pressured me non-stop for free services/stuff, and so i had to draw a lot of boundaries. In a strange way i have found that offering generosity is an effective way to learn about people. Try it and see if they go into crazy take take take mode, or if they have no capacity to trust. It's rather a fascinating and effective way to get info on others fast.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #24
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    I agree with everything Toonia says in the first part. I'm just a bit confused as to how y'all can't easily tell the difference between the genuine motives and the more sinister/sad ones? Given that it's so easy to tell the differences, this is why I feel quite content with going ahead anyway, knowing what to expect and with a pre-meditated plan of how I shall handle it.

    I also agree with proteanmix that not everyone has a pure heart and this has to be borne in mind. But I find that if you treat everyone as though they do, then if they try to abuse you you can simply not acknowledge their inferences and/or denounce their mal intentions, thereby exposing them and killing two birds with one stone: they're less likely to do it again in a hurry and others will be onto them in the future. If someone says to me, "After all I've done for you, I'd think you'd... [something tenuous and unreasonable]" then why not simply say "Sorry, I didn't realise that all you did for me was on condition that I obey you in all matters. Had I known, I would have done those things myself or asked someone a bit less controlling." The more people you say that in front of, the better.

    Maybe y'all just don't have as good Ne as me
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #25
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I agree with everything Toonia says in the first part. I'm just a bit confused as to how y'all can't easily tell the difference between the genuine motives and the more sinister/sad ones? Given that it's so easy to tell the differences, this is why I feel quite content with going ahead anyway, knowing what to expect and with a pre-meditated plan of how I shall handle it.

    Maybe y'all just don't have as good Ne as me
    Have you ever worked professionally with gifted performers? Not all Oscar worthy actors are in Hollywood. This is true even outside the context of professional performance. If you have too much confidence in your reading skills as i did when i was young, you are guaranteed to get burnt. Just be careful, substitute.

    Also, the purely black and white motives are admittedly rare. People are complex and often have a measure of self-interest and some measure of altruism when they give. That's why it's best to think a shade brighter than reality when possible. It helps people feel strong enough to be more generous. It can even help to distill motives.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Have you ever worked professionally with gifted performers? Not all Oscar worthy actors are in Hollywood. This is true even outside the context of professional performance. If you have too much confidence in your reading skills as i did when i was young, you are guaranteed to get burnt. Just be careful, substitute.
    Amen to that. Don't underestimate people.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    As a side note (which came to me during my recent bubble bath ) , i was remembering a woman i met who was a professional psychologist with a doctorate. If i had to type her, i'd say she is an ENTP, but i can't verify it. She spent her life working with addicts. Wanna know her philosophy working with people? She believes absolutely nothing anyone tells her. Even though her entire life is dedicated to studying verbal and non-verbal cues, the deep inner workings of the mind, etc. She has been fooled. Heck, lie detectors have been fooled. Addicts, sociopaths, and people who are just gifted at lying are sometimes impossible to read. Those same inherent human skills that allow some to express a character in film down to the nuance of every eye twitch and inflection of the voice, are present in the day to day conman.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Amen to that. Don't underestimate people.
    I do try not to underestimate people, but a) that doesn't mean to go around treating everyone by default as not to be trusted and b) the fact that people usually underestimate me means that on the rare occasion when I do underestimate them, it does them more harm than it does me, because they don't realise that I'm quite ready for confrontations and extremely difficult to manipulate because I simply won't do something purely out of pressure from someone else, no matter what. And if people want to try drama with me, they'll find I'm more than equipped for that, too. They'll get more than they bargained for; I can handle myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    As a side note (which came to me during my recent bubble bath ) , i was remembering a woman i met who was a professional psychologist with a doctorate. If i had to type her, i'd say she is an ENTP, but i can't verify it. She spent her life working with addicts. Wanna know her philosophy working with people? She believes absolutely nothing anyone tells her. Even though her entire life is dedicated to studying verbal and non-verbal cues, the deep inner workings of the mind, etc. She has been fooled. ...

    But can't you see that none of that makes any difference to me? I'm perfectly aware of all of that, and by no means am even I arrogant enough to think that I'm impossible to fool. It's not a case of trusting everyone, and doing things for them. It's just that I do those things because it's who I am and I do them for anyone, regardless of what their motives and background are, and even if they abuse my trust a thousand times it won't stop me giving them another chance - not because I'm a fool and think they'll learn, but because I'm doing it for reasons of my own. Spiritual ones, if you will. It's a fight that I refuse to stop fighting - the fight against all the forces in this bloody mad society that try to drag me down into a spiral of cynicism and selfish individualism. People may think they're fooling me, but even if they are on the surface of it, they're fooling themselves because I refuse to let them take away from me the parts of me that are all good.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #29
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    A very simple, yet deep question: What exactly is the point of giving to anyone if you don't get anything in return?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    A very simple, yet deep question: What exactly is the point of giving to anyone if you don't get anything in return?


    Altruism.


    Or alternatively, see my last post; I do get something. A little bit of my soul back each time, clawed back from the black soul hole that is Western society. Each time I give to someone - the 'worse' and more 'underserving' the person the greater the reward - is a little victory within myself.

    But mostly, altruism.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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