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  1. #1
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Default The Problem with Joining Groups: The Roots of Non-Conformity.

    In general, I am very fed up with being a joiner.

    I see it as a cycle.

    You start off wanting new experiences and looking for opportunities.

    You find what you are looking for; be it a club, association, group, or organization.

    Things go good for a while. You become actively involved with the flow of things and assimilate into your surroundings. Others build expectations and assumptions about you, and you are expected to act as one of them. And it becomes your life, your main focus, exactly what they want it to become.

    But there comes a certain point where you begin to question it all. Is this really what I want to be doing? What other opportunities do I have? Is this a waste of time?

    And you want to drop out.

    But you can't, you've already sunk your feet in deep enough. It's almost as if they close the circle around you and won't let you leave. They would never understand..

    That is why I am not a joiner anymore.

    I'd like to stay balanced on both legs, and not sink into any muddy waters.

    I've got to keep moving.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  2. #2
    heart on fire
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    Reminds me of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung, The Undiscovered Self

    "It is just this banding together and the resultant extinction of the individual personality that makes it succumb so readily to a dictator.

    A million zeros joined together do not, unfortunately, add up to one.

    Ultimately everything depends on the quality of the individual, but the fatally shortsighted habit of our age is to think only in terms of large numbers and mass organizations, though one would think that the world has seen more than enough of what a well-disciplined mob can do in the hands of a single madman.


    Unfortunately, this realization does not seem to have penetrated very far and our blindness in this respect is extremely dangerous. People go on blithely organizing and believing in the sovereign remedy of mass action, without the least consciousness of the fact that the most powerful organizations can be maintained only by the greatest ruthlessness of their leaders and the cheapest of slogans...


    Where the many are there is security; what the many believe must of course be true; what the many want must be worth striving for, and necessary and therefore good. In the clamor of the many there lies the power to snatch wish fulfillments by force; sweetest of all, however, is that gentle and painless slipping back into the kingdom of childhood, into the paradise of parental care, into happy-go-luckiness and irresponsibility.

    All the thinking and looking after are done from the top; to all questions there is an answer; and for all needs the necessary provision is made. The infantile dream state of the mass man is so unrealistic that he never thinks to ask who is paying for this paradise. The balancing of accounts is left to a higher political or social authority, which welcomes the task, for its power is thereby increased; and the more power it has, the weaker and more helpless the individual becomes.


    Wherever social conditions of this type develop on a large scale, the road to tyranny lies open and the freedom of the individual turns into spiritual and physical slavery. Since every tyranny is ipso facto immoral and ruthless, it has much more freedom in the choice of its methods than an institution which still takes account of the individual. Should such an institution come into conflict with the organized State, it is soon made aware of the very real disadvantage of its morality and therefore feels compelled to avail itself of the same methods as its opponent. In this way, the evil spreads almost of necessity, even when direct infection might be avoided.

    The danger of infection is greater where decisive importance is attached to large numbers and statistical values, as is everywhere the case in our Western world. The suffocating power of the masses is paraded before our eyes in one form or another every day in the newspapers, and the insignificance of the individual is rubbed into him so thoroughly that he loses all hope of making himself heard. The outworn ideals of libert

    The outworn ideals of liberté, égalité, fraternité help him not at all, as he can direct this appeal only to his executioners, the spokesmen of the masses.



    Resistance to the organized mass can be effected only by the man who is as well organized in his individuality as the mass itself."

    Carl Jung, "The Undiscovered Self" (pp. 5-59)

  3. #3
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Look around you. There is a whole group of people who kept moving/did not succumb to a groups expectations. Join the croud

    imo, you are allowed to eject yourself from a group with the identical selfishness that the group imposed on you by having expectations parellel to having a tag on your ear like a cow.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Reminds me of this:
    Wow, what a great excerpt. Jung put it in words I could have never mustered. It's to see the psychological side to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Look around you. There is a whole group of people who kept moving/did not succumb to a groups expectations. Join the croud

    imo, you are allowed to eject yourself from a group with the identical selfishness that the group imposed on you by having expectations parellel to having a tag on your ear like a cow.
    I know I have that power, but I always feel like I am letting others down and that they will judge me because of it. It's a tough road, but sometimes I feel like I may need to do things on my own, instead of always making decisions based on others influences.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #5
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    In general, I am very fed up with being a joiner.

    I see it as a cycle.

    You start off wanting new experiences and looking for opportunities.

    You find what you are looking for; be it a club, association, group, or organization.

    Things go good for a while. You become actively involved with the flow of things and assimilate into your surroundings. Others build expectations and assumptions about you, and you are expected to act as one of them. And it becomes your life, your main focus, exactly what they want it to become.

    But there comes a certain point where you begin to question it all. Is this really what I want to be doing? What other opportunities do I have? Is this a waste of time?

    And you want to drop out.

    But you can't, you've already sunk your feet in deep enough. It's almost as if they close the circle around you and won't let you leave. They would never understand..

    That is why I am not a joiner anymore.

    I'd like to stay balanced on both legs, and not sink into any muddy waters.

    I've got to keep moving.

    Same here, Brotha.

    Same here.


    If anyone has a solution to this, I'm all ears.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post

    I know I have that power, but I always feel like I am letting others down and that they will judge me because of it. It's a tough road, but sometimes I feel like I may need to do things on my own, instead of always making decisions based on others influences.
    I believe this may be the central internal conflict for the ENFP.

    It may take a lifetime to figure this out.

    Some may criticize you for caring about people's opinions, but as an ENFP, I think you are naturally very torn between getting along with others and forging your own individual path.

    To some degree, this may not be specifically about ENFPs, but an NF thing----- or maybe even just a human struggle.

    And people of all types have internal conflicts.

    But no one should feel bad about having internal conflicts, because that is a sign of growth.

    I think the key is to develop the secondary function.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  6. #6
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Same here, Brotha.

    Same here.


    If anyone has a solution to this, I'm all ears.
    yaya!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  7. #7
    Patron Saint Of Smileys Gloriana's Avatar
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    I'm the same way and cannot remember a time I wasn't. I'm attracted to groups and that sense of belonging, but once I get there I can get uncomfortable and wigged out. I'm attracted to the 'family dynamic' that can come with a group of friends, but I start feeling ill when it turns into mob mentality, group think, etc. When each individual personality seems to start getting absorbed into the 'group entity', I tend to haul ass.

    It's definitely that love/hate thing. I'm in awe of what large groups of people can do but at the same time it unsettles me. I went to a protest in DC for an issue I cared about, and even though all the thousands of other demonstrators there had the same feelings I did, I felt weirded out by the in-unison group shouts and stuff. There is this panic button that goes off in my head telling me to keep my head and remain 'me'.

    Not sure if it's an ego issue or what, but I can't stand to stick with a group if I feel I will have to start sacrificing my own way of expressing myself in favor of group comfort. I'm also painfully aware of how ANYONE is capable of doing really bad things in the midst of group mentality, it's something I try hard to avoid because I am just as able to be influenced as the next person.

    It can definitely be painful, I long to connect with people and have that supportive circle, but if the price is compromising myself across boundaries I am not comfortable with I will just bow out. I guess it's easier to take the label of being some kind of 'traitor' than it is for me to 'go with the flow' just for the sake of it.
    "Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get, but if you work really hard, and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you...amazing things will happen" --Conan O'Brien

  8. #8
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Wow, Gloriana, you said it.

    I just hate how they suck you in and give you responsibilities. I don't mind responsibilities, but if I could choose between being an individual with my own responsibilities, to being apart of a huge function where I am relied upon (especially if it is volunteer) than I don't dig it.

    I like to pop in and out of shops, but don't like to hang around for too long. It's not my way. I come and I go and learn all I can.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #9
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    I'm the same way and cannot remember a time I wasn't. I'm attracted to groups and that sense of belonging, but once I get there I can get uncomfortable and wigged out. I'm attracted to the 'family dynamic' that can come with a group of friends, but I start feeling ill when it turns into mob mentality, group think, etc. When each individual personality seems to start getting absorbed into the 'group entity', I tend to haul ass.

    It's definitely that love/hate thing. I'm in awe of what large groups of people can do but at the same time it unsettles me. I went to a protest in DC for an issue I cared about, and even though all the thousands of other demonstrators there had the same feelings I did, I felt weirded out by the in-unison group shouts and stuff. There is this panic button that goes off in my head telling me to keep my head and remain 'me'.

    Not sure if it's an ego issue or what, but I can't stand to stick with a group if I feel I will have to start sacrificing my own way of expressing myself in favor of group comfort. I'm also painfully aware of how ANYONE is capable of doing really bad things in the midst of group mentality, it's something I try hard to avoid because I am just as able to be influenced as the next person.

    It can definitely be painful, I long to connect with people and have that supportive circle, but if the price is compromising myself across boundaries I am not comfortable with I will just bow out. I guess it's easier to take the label of being some kind of 'traitor' than it is for me to 'go with the flow' just for the sake of it.
    Hooray for healthy boundaries!
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


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