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  1. #211
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    Isn't that what you have been doing here. Trying to incite further reactions by disecting everything Jenocyde has said and not just taking her word for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Ummm...no. Jenocyde and I are fine, we are used to communication like this. We're discussing this issue, trying to see where the other side is coming from. There was no dismissal involved.

    And why should I take anyone's word on an issue? I will take their word on what they are about, but not anything else. This is a forum. People will prod for further information if need be. That's what it's all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, that's how I see it, too.

    I know that people don't act like this where you come from, saslou, but all you need to know is that we do things a little differently around here. This kind of thing isn't considered dismissal.
    There's been miscommunication from the start.

    Saslou, you stuck up for Jenocyde when you misread the communication dynamics between her and Lauren Ashley, and, got between that, thinking LA was harping on Jenocyde (which actually wasn't the case). They prolly could have (and DID) deal with it on their own, and sorted themselves out. Grown ups, those two (sometimes).

    Lauren Ashley explained that to you, which was all fine and good. But, then....

    Athenian chimed in, and, I could see how saslou took offense to what Athenian said, esp. this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know that people don't act like this where you come from, saslou, but all you need to know is that we do things a little differently around here.
    Athenian wasn't talking about INFJ and ESFJ difference with the 'where you come from' and the 'I know' can be seen as condescending. So, I get saslou's reaction.

    How all this could have been avoided? Athenian and saslou, let people deal with their own discussions, unless you have a thought/idea to add, not peanut-gallery type commentary.

    Too many cooks spoil the broth. Amen.

    /peanut-gallery commentary

  2. #212
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It's easy for others to overlook what is, and always focus on what isn't. As what is, is, while what isn't leaves an apparent hole that's easy to question.

    Exactly. And, for the bolded, I'd say, people will always want us to be something MORE. Not something else, as, the initial expectations means there's something about us that does fulfill them in order to secure the relation, so they don't want something ELSE, per se....they want MORE. And, MORE! We all do. It's expecations. It's motivations. It's hope. It's human.
    Excellent point. So perhaps a lesson to take away from this is to remember to appreciate people for their strengths, particularly when you wish to push them to develop their weaknesses.

    I guess I'm very sensitive (), of recent, to criticisms about my emotional maturity because I had, in the recent past, made it a resolve to work more on this aspect of mine's...hence, the hypersensitivity to it. Ha! Now, only if I can channel this 'hypersensitivity' before and DURING the fact (not after), and, I'm golden.
    It's a process. However, motivation is important. Are you doing this because you desire self growth, or because of external pressure from others? If it's the latter, it may cause more harm than good IMO.

  3. #213
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    1. Jenocyde is right. (Returning the favor )
    On what?

    There is no "right" and "wrong" here, this isn't a math class. There are just different points of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    [...]Too many cooks spoil the broth. Amen.

    /peanut-gallery commentary
    This is why you rock, Q. Rock on

  4. #214
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    There's been miscommunication from the start.

    Saslou, you stuck up for Jenocyde when you misread the communication dynamics between her and Lauren Ashley, and, got between that, thinking LA was harping on Jenocyde (which actually wasn't the case). They prolly could have (and DID) deal with it on their own, and sorted themselves out. Grown ups, those two (sometimes).

    Lauren Ashley explained that to you, which was all fine and good. But, then....
    For what it's worth, I had started writing my response before LA replied.

    Athenian wasn't talking about INFJ and ESFJ difference with the 'where you come from' and the 'I know' can be seen as condescending. So, I get saslou's reaction.
    I can't deal with this. It doesn't make any sense.

    I'm so tired of dealing with how people perceive things when their perceptions don't make any sense to me. It's frustrating.

    I guess what I meant was that she came from society, the real world where there's this large level of experience, gracefulness, and tact, where the entire goal is relating to other people. We're on the Internet, where the goal is to exchange ideas. It's a completely different world, and it seemed to me that she was interpreting this world via what she'd learned in the other one, and failing to understand the goal of the discussion.
    How all this could have been avoided? Athenian and saslou, let people deal with their own discussions, unless you have a thought/idea to add, not peanut-gallery type commentary.

    Too many cooks spoil the broth. Amen.
    I agree with this part. I should have just let LA handle that on their own... not gotten defensive because I felt that the way saslou presented LA's perspective was too one-sided. I have no idea how I could have been viewed as condescending rather than defensive.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    It's a process. However, motivation is important. Are you doing this because you desire self growth, or because of external pressure from others? If it's the latter, it may cause more harm than good IMO.
    Both? I have gained insight into my need for self-growth through external occurances.

  6. #216
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    On what?

    There is no "right" and "wrong" here, this isn't a math class. There are just different points of view.
    Not directed at you, just a bit of a reference to earlier in the thread where she said I was right. You do know that's the thing we ENTPs love hearing most, right?

    Also, while the debate and discussion is welcomed, it's starting to grow a little tiresome - we on the T side have already accepted that calling someone "emotional" to discredit their point can come across as condescending, even if that isn't the purpose. We're mostly trying to explain our rationale at this point. It may just be a misperception on my part, but it's coming across to me that the more F inclined members are either unwilling or unable to accept our way of looking at things as valid in this circumstance, particularly why we see emoting as being inappropriate in certain circumstances, not to mention why being called cold, heartless, robotic, dismissively "always right" and so on end up being equivalently counterproductive as calling someone emotional, particularly when the latter is usually trying to help the situation.

    Basically, we have a right to consider the overall situation more important than the people within it. That's something that it seems like F users vehemently disagree with.

  7. #217
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Also, while the debate and discussion is welcomed, it's starting to grow a little tiresome - we on the T side have already accepted that calling someone "emotional" to discredit their point can come across as condescending, even if that isn't the purpose.
    Where? Let's be clear, no T type in this thread (besides perhaps Tallulah in the very beginning) ever actually acknowledged that this is personally insulting. It's either been explaining why this statement is said or pointing out what is hurtful to the T type. You can go back and check if you'd like.

    We're mostly trying to explain our rationale at this point. It may just be a misperception on my part, but it's coming across to me that the more F inclined members are either unwilling or unable to accept our way of looking at things as valid in this circumstance, particularly why we see emoting as being inappropriate in certain circumstances, not to mention why being called cold, heartless, robotic, dismissively "always right" and so on end up being equivalently counterproductive as calling someone emotional, particularly when the latter is usually trying to help the situation.
    No one is saying that your point is invalid. I've said several times, I understand where you're coming from. I'm just presenting the fact that the reverse of such statements is just as hurtful. But I realize it's hard for you (seemingly) to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

    Basically, we have a right to consider the overall situation more important than the people within it. That's something that it seems like F users vehemently disagree with.
    With all due respect, I (can't speak for others) don't care how you address a situation. But likewise, another person has the right to consider the people in a situation as well as the situation.

  8. #218
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Oh my goodness, this has really gone on long enough... This has been fun, but I am unsubscribing.

  9. #219
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    ^I agree. Normally I get bored after a couple of pages. But I don't have anything else better to do right now than correct people on "teh interwebz." So sue me

  10. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess what I meant was that she came from society, the real world where there's this large level of experience, gracefulness, and tact, where the entire goal is relating to other people. We're on the Internet, where the goal is to exchange ideas. It's a completely different world, and it seemed to me that she was interpreting this world via what she'd learned in the other one, and failing to understand the goal of the discussion.
    This doesn't make any sense. You can't expect other people to subscribe to your narrow understanding of what the internet is for. You may come simply to exchange ideas, but people come for all sorts of reasons, including relating to other people. You've previously displayed a proprietary notion of what the internet is and is not supposed to be, and it's puzzling to me. I'm sure it's puzzling to others as well, and this is why your descriptors "where you come from" and "where we come from" were not understood.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

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