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  1. #201
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Well I can fly higher than an eagle.

  2. #202
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    It's funny, in a way. I get hit with the exact opposite problem in my life. Anytime I expressed emotion as a kid I was very quickly 'put in my place'. People didn't want me to sympathize with them, they wanted me to rise above it and help pull them out of the emotional rut with clarity and action.
    Hmm...see, with my friend in that story, another friend of hers met up with us, when she broke down. That friend was there at the funeral, and after, with support (phone calls, etc). When my friend broke down, she jumped up to hug her, and give soothing words of reassurance. I let them have their moment, and then, gave my support - not a hug, not a soothing affirmation, I spoke. I spoke, to put into perspectives, all that she may be dealing with and why. I called her out on two very valid points that she had yet to fully acknolwedge in herself and her likely reasons for being so affected by her uncle's death.

    (1) she's the oldest child, hence, she, out of all her siblings, most sympathize with her father and seeing him bury his only younger sibling.

    (2) I guessed that she had never before this faced death directly, and what dying was. I had to deal with it a few times, as a child, with 2 grandmothers, and a grandfather. Staring death in the face, and understanding its magnitude. I told her that it must be a very intense experience facing it for the first time....in adulthood.

    She calmed and we finally got to have a heart-to-heart conversation as she agreed with both my points, and, we explored those more in-depth. That is how I'm there for others. I may not be the most nurturing with sympathy, but, I know what I'm good at, giving clarity and rationalizing actions to better deal/put into perspective.

    But because it is my modus operandi, i.e. my expected way of being, its opposite will then always be the negative cloud hanging over my head (being more emotional, sympathetic, etc). Hence, its easy for others to overlook my natural way of being as an asset and demand of me what I don't have as naturally. Human nature?

    We always want more. The grass is greener, etc. etc.

    So, I'm sure for you, people took your sympathy when they needed it, and, overlooked its significant contribution, because, that's just you, the common, the guaranteed. So, the uncommon, then, by default gets put in demand. "Give clarity and action!" It's easy for others to overlook what is, and always focus on what isn't. As what is, is, while what isn't leaves an apparent hole that's easy to question.

    I think the problem is that no matter who we are, some people will always want us to be something else. And it's human nature to draw people to us because of our differences. However, then they want to change us when our differences get in the way of fulfilling their needs and expectations.
    Exactly. And, for the bolded, I'd say, people will always want us to be something MORE. Not something else, as, the initial expectations means there's something about us that does fulfill them in order to secure the relation, so they don't want something ELSE, per se....they want MORE. And, MORE! We all do. It's expecations. It's motivations. It's hope. It's human.

    Which, Q, is my way of saying you are being too hard on yourself. This isn't a 'you' thing, it's a people thing. In the future, you can try asking what the person needs. The very best people, Ts and Fs, will tell you straight up and not expect you to guess. Or they will be honest and say "I don't know" if they don't know. Those are the people you want to find.
    I guess I'm very sensitive (), of recent, to criticisms about my emotional maturity because I had, in the recent past, made it a resolve to work more on this aspect of mine's...hence, the hypersensitivity to it. Ha! Now, only if I can channel this 'hypersensitivity' before and DURING the fact (not after), and, I'm golden.

  3. #203
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    That is seriously fucking condescending. What the hell do you mean by that?
    I meant that you might not be in a position to assess what you assessed, because you don't know us and how we operate.

    Sigh. Why do you have to be so aggressive? I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings.

  4. #204
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Well, I just spent 15 typing out a detailed thought about the miscommunication, and Firefox crashed on me. v 3.5.x seems to be buggy as all hell.

    Anyway, the key points:

    1. Jenocyde is right. (Returning the favor )
    2. When Ts (or maybe just ENTPs) emote during a heated discussion, it's usually in response to self-centered desires, such as moral superiority or justification, a desire to punish the offending other, manipulation, or a need to feel better.
    3. This may just be a manifestation of shadow functions.
    4. Because we project our own functions onto others, when someone gets emotional during an argument, we're inclined to think its for a selfish purpose.
    5. Selfishness is associated with immaturity.
    6. Therefore, an emotional person during a discussion is seen as being immature.

    That was way better stated in the condensed form.

  5. #205
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I meant that you might not be in a position to assess what you assessed, because you don't know us and how we operate.

    Sigh. Why do you have to be so aggressive?
    Please remove pole from arse darling. You are not that great.

    How dare you turn this around. I reacted to your words. I can choose my words carefully in how i respond. If you wasn't looking for this reaction, maybe you should of considered writing the above instead of your condescending crap.

    Please come on with the but, but, but ...
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  6. #206
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Well, I just spent 15 typing out a detailed thought about the miscommunication, and Firefox crashed on me. v 3.5.x seems to be buggy as all hell.

    Anyway, the key points:

    1. Jenocyde is right. (Returning the favor )
    2. When Ts (or maybe just ENTPs) emote during a heated discussion, it's usually in response to self-centered desires, such as moral superiority or justification, a desire to punish the offending other, manipulation, or a need to feel better.
    3. This may just be a manifestation of shadow functions.
    4. Because we project our own functions onto others, when someone gets emotional during an argument, we're inclined to think its for a selfish purpose.
    5. Selfishness is associated with immaturity.
    6. Therefore, an emotional person during a discussion is seen as being immature.

    That was way better stated in the condensed form.
    That was very concise and well stated.

    I agree with the bolded parts, especially.

    Especially #1.

    EDIT: I've said this before, but I generally feel that people are usually faking their emotions, because that is what I used to do to make people feel better, or worse... I am slowly learning that this is not the case.

  7. #207
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Athenian, maybe it would be better if you clarified what "we" and "us" mean to you. Are you speaking about nationality, function preference, or something else?

  8. #208
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    Please remove pole from arse darling. You are not that great.

    How dare you turn this around. I reacted to your words. I can choose my words carefully in how i respond. If you wasn't looking for this reaction, maybe you should of considered writing the above instead of your condescending crap.

    Please come on with the but, but, but ...
    My words weren't condescending. You chose to interpret them that way.

    And you're not that great either, assuming you know everything about us enough to think you can decide what we mean by things.

    I would appreciate it if we could drop this now. Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Athenian, maybe it would be better if you clarified what "we" and "us" mean to you. Are you speaking about nationality, function preference, or something else?
    Oh. Well, I guess I was talking about INFJs. She interpreted LA as attacking you.

  9. #209
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    My words weren't condescending. You chose to interpret them that way.

    And you're not that great either, assuming you know everything about us enough to think you can decide what we mean by things.

    I would appreciate it if we could drop this now. Please?
    If you think your words were not condescending then you need to work on your social skills.

    I am very sorry for taking eveyone's word on this thread literally. I was under the impression that people say what they mean and mean what they say. So it is correct about INF's then 'I said this but i mean't this' .. Whatever.
    Sure lets drop it.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  10. #210
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    If you think your words were not condescending then you need to work on your social skills.

    I am very sorry for taking eveyone's word on this thread literally. I was under the impression that people say what they mean and mean what they say. So it is correct about INF's then 'I said this but i mean't this' .. Whatever.
    Sure lets drop it.
    Thanks.

    I'll admit my social skills could use some work. I just need a society to practice them in... can't seem to find one, because you need a job and money in order to participate. Otherwise, you're just locked out.

    I never say what I mean, or mean what I say, personally. It's just not my style.

    It might be worth learning how to emulate, though.

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