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  1. #151
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Right, but that's what I meant about striving for harmony.
    Oh, I thought you meant just interpersonal harmony. I guess I was trying to convey the fact that I try to apply this belief to other levels of reality, and the results often make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by wild horses
    I was going to say that you don't ever hear "You're being rational" used in an insulting way but then I remembered using it a bunch of times to that effect
    No, but you do hear "You're being heartless/robotic/cold-hearted" as an insult. That's basically another way of insulting their rationality.

  2. #152
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh, I thought you meant just interpersonal harmony. I guess I was trying to convey the fact that I try to apply this belief to other levels of reality, and the results often make sense.
    I think we do the same thing too - for me, at least, a harmonious conversation is one in which anything can be said with the knowledge that no one will leave thinking any less of the participants, judging the merit of the ideas and ideas alone. Yes, this is a utopian vision.

    No, but you do hear "You're being heartless/robotic/cold-hearted" as an insult. That's basically another way of insulting their rationality.
    Exactly. Usually, all this does is evoke a "well, you're being irrational/emotional/a bleeding-heart/selfish/too sensitive" response, which if the conversation wasn't derailed already, will ensure it.

  3. #153
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    No, but you do hear "You're being heartless/robotic/cold-hearted" as an insult. That's basically another way of insulting their rationality.
    , thank you! I, unlike a few "thinkers" on this site, do not take pride, nor feel that it's 'nothing of mine's that need a'changin' when being called out as emotionally retarded or something.

    I was asked by the bf to make a case for marriage, i.e. why should/do people marry.

    My points were one of economically being effective (shared household, tax breaks). He interrupted going, "Well, you see, most would say, you marry for love."

    Well, like, DUH! That's a given, I thought, but, his response made me feel like it's just another indication that I don't think of such things.

    Another time, in a random conversation, I pointed out that I love my pet. His response, "You love her? Really? You know love? How do you love her?" As if it's a huge revelation that I may be capable of, and understand, love.

    It's really very disheartening to have people question such basics of my emotions just because I am the way I am, where others may get a 'free-pass' and assumed to be caring, and I do not. Esp. when nothing could be further from the truth.

    I feel, it's just that how I process my feelings gets muddied by 'rationalizations', or, a 3rd person-type pov, which may feel very detached to the other person. But, I do understand, if you allow me to get it - i.e. not be skeptical towards me, and show yourself freely.

  4. #154
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    , thank you! I, unlike a few "thinkers" on this site, do not take pride, nor feel that it's 'nothing of mine's that need a'changin' when being called out as emotionally retarded or something.
    Well, just make sure you don't assume that you need to change every time someone does that. There really are oversensitive people in the world who overreact to things you should ignore. The general rule for me is, if there isn't any way I could have been expected to predict their response (such as knowing it's generally considered taboo or insulting, or possessed the prior knowledge that that's a red-button topic for them personally), then I'm not responsible for it and they're oversensitive.

    Basically, I'm willing to be held accountable for common decency, kindness, politeness and such, but not for other people's unspoken visceral reactions, personal experiences, and instincts. Because I can control for the most part whether I fulfill the former, but not whether I trigger the latter.
    I was asked by the bf to make a case for marriage, i.e. why should/do people marry.

    My points were one of economically being effective (shared household, tax breaks). He interrupted going, "Well, you see, most would say, you marry for love."

    Well, like, DUH! That's a given, I thought, but, his response made me feel like it's just another indication that I don't think of such things.
    I would have said that people marry because of tradition and ceremony that probably arose as a way of demonstrating to the larger community that you have made a commitment to a particular partner. So, people marry to demonstrate to other people and the government that they've made a particular commitment to one another.
    Another time, in a random conversation, I pointed out that I love my pet. His response, "You love her? Really? You know love? How do you love her?" As if it's a huge revelation that I may be capable of, and understand, love.

    It's really very disheartening to have people question such basics of my emotions just because I am the way I am, where others may get a 'free-pass' and assumed to be caring, and I do not. Esp. when nothing could be further from the truth.

    I feel, it's just that how I process my feelings gets muddied by 'rationalizations', or, a 3rd person-type pov, which may feel very detached to the other person. But, I do understand, if you allow me to get it - i.e. not be skeptical towards me, and show yourself freely.
    That really is sad. Just because you don't think or talk about love all the time doesn't mean you can't do it. Kind of mean to assume that you can't.

    The only sad thing about NTs feeling stuff, is that it means I'll never find REAL heartless intellectuals that see all aspects of reality in purely objective terms, free of any influence from desire, passion, tradition, or morality. So my curiosity about that perspective will never be satisfied, as NTs still have those qualities in smaller degrees. On the bright side, it means I can trust in their humanity to a reasonable extent.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, just make sure you don't assume that you need to change every time someone does that. There really are oversensitive people in the world who overreact to things you should ignore. The general rule for me is, if there isn't any way I could have been expected to predict their response (such as knowing it's generally considered taboo or insulting, or possessed the prior knowledge that that's a red-button topic for them personally), then I'm not responsible for it and they're oversensitive.

    Basically, I'm willing to be held accountable for common decency, kindness, politeness and such, but not for other people's unspoken visceral reactions, personal experiences, and instincts. Because I can control for the most part whether I fulfill the former, but not whether I trigger the latter.
    That's a really good way to evaluate one's own actions. The first bolded: I try to stick to something similar myself, except with an added dimension of being a little loose with 'personal experience' of others close to me. I give them leeway in that regard sometimes.

    The only sad thing about NTs feeling stuff, is that it means I'll never find REAL heartless intellectuals that see all aspects of reality in purely objective terms, free of any influence from desire, passion, tradition, or morality. So my curiosity about that perspective will never be satisfied, as NTs still have those qualities in smaller degrees. On the bright side, it means I can trust in their humanity to a reasonable extent.
    Weird, isn't it? And, so... the tinman got a heart.

  6. #156
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So, being emotional (i.e. taking emotions to greater length, 'overly so') may be the exact thing called for in a situation, to show, perhaps, care, sympathy, understanding, and for those of us, on the complete opposite side - like me - a little wistful and envious of how easy it is to go there for some of you guys. And, thus a question, how do you get there? What should I be mindful of? Tap into? To be emotional? Did I do anything wrong (wasn't there enough) for said friend?

    That was long, but, had to get off my chest, as it really hit me how insensitive I can be at times, without really realizing.
    It's funny, in a way. I get hit with the exact opposite problem in my life. Anytime I expressed emotion as a kid I was very quickly 'put in my place'. People didn't want me to sympathize with them, they wanted me to rise above it and help pull them out of the emotional rut with clarity and action.

    I think the problem is that no matter who we are, some people will always want us to be something else. And it's human nature to draw people to us because of our differences. However, then they want to change us when our differences get in the way of fulfilling their needs and expectations.

    Which, Q, is my way of saying you are being too hard on yourself. This isn't a 'you' thing, it's a people thing. In the future, you can try asking what the person needs. The very best people, Ts and Fs, will tell you straight up and not expect you to guess. Or they will be honest and say "I don't know" if they don't know. Those are the people you want to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Yes, I know but I am talking about the sheer volume of times that compromise must be made on either side. The scale is inherently tipped, it's just the way it is. I'm assuming it's even more so for T women and F males.
    Jen, I think that as an T female and F male, our experiences are going to be far more extreme than a proper F female and T male. I don't know if the latter can truly understand how prevalent in every day of our lives this can sometimes be.

  7. #157
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Jen, I think that as an T female and F male, our experiences are going to be far more extreme than a proper F female and T male. I don't know if the latter can truly understand how prevalent in every day of our lives this can sometimes be.
    As you know, I grew up with two NFP males. I empathize with their plight.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Because logic is hailed as greater than feeling; what separates us from the lower animals. And people use emotions and feelings interchangeably although they are not one and the same.
    Agreed.

    If an F-dom and a T-dom are having arguments, I can see a T-dom deeply resenting an "emotional" accusation (accurate or no) from their counterpart and the argument rapidly devolving into defensiveness. Eek! Feelings are unhygienic and I must disinfect my psyche. Conversely, I don't see an F-dom even receiving that criticism flipped or reacting the same way to being accused of rationality --if anything, they're feeling the need to overcompensate and are eager to prove just how rational they can be because culturally it seems to be a more desired (superior?) state of being. But, why? I'd love some theory tossing.

    ...Personally, I find that My Ni is searching for the best macro-focused view on this issue, my Fe is trying to find a productive way to relate this new perspective, and my Ti is deconstructing it for improved understanding --but as usual, my Ti seems to create more questions than answers. If I take a cultural snapshot in my mind to understand this phenomenon, I'm left with: Why is this? How is this? Is it a permanent shift? Is it solely transitional? Is this problem more or less relevant to my particular brand of existence? (Female, college-educated, biracial, nomadic, agnostic, INFJ etc.) Input?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  9. #159
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    I am "emotionally challenged."
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #160
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Agreed.

    If an F-dom and a T-dom are having arguments, I can see a T-dom deeply resenting an "emotional" accusation (accurate or no) from their counterpart and the argument rapidly devolving into defensiveness. Eek! Feelings are unhygienic and I must disinfect my psyche. Conversely, I don't see an F-dom even receiving that criticism flipped or reacting the same way to being accused of rationality --if anything, they're feeling the need to overcompensate and are eager to prove just how rational they can be because culturally it seems to be a more desired (superior?) state of being. But, why? I'd love some theory tossing.
    How would you respond to someone calling you a "cold, heartless bastard"?

    It's never cloaked in the plain language of rationality - "you're too emotional". It's always more charged in its accusations.

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