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  1. #121
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I can only agree halfway on this. If that issue is part of what makes you who you are and affects the things you do in life..
    You don't have to agree, we are different people. I just don't understand the concept of closeness as being defined by my telling someone about something in my past. I don't need to base the acceptance of another human being by how much I understand their motivations. I base my acceptance on how they treat me and how they treat others. Where they came from has no bearing at all on how much or how deeply I can care for a person. If a person is unwilling to share an aspect of their life, that is their right. I most likely don't want to hear it anyway.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    I have an anecdotal story which happened to me recently, and although it doesn't quite address the OP, the subsequent discussions may allow for my story to have relevance here.

    My xSxx best friend lost her uncle (father's only sibling, younger brother) who died pretty young (51) due to a heart-attack. He was severely diabetic, needed dialysis every other day, etc., etc. Their family was not very close with said uncle and his family, even though they lived in the same city; they haven't seen each other in over 2 years. Uncle was intellectually disabled, and my friend strongly believes he was abused by his wife (she kept him away from his brother, my friend's father). He apparently went to the hospital 3 months ago, but, my friend's father was only notified (by uncle's wife) when he passed away. Meaning, the two brothers never got to see each other one last time before the man passed away.

    My friend lives in my homecity, where my parents live, and for school, I live about 2.5 hrs drive away, in another town. When it happened, she called me, and I, of course, was on the phone giving support. I asked about the funeral, and it turned out to be the upcoming weekend. I told her right away that my work (supervisors' deadlines) meant I could not go home for that weekend, meaning, I couldn't attend the funeral. She understood. I told her I'll call the the next day to see how she was doing. I called her the next day, she didn't answer. In my head, I was giving her time to deal with everything, and, be with family.

    Well, I finally came home 3 weeks later, first thing I did, gave her a big hug, asked how she and her family (especially her father) was holding up, how the funeral went, etc.

    Turns out, as the night progressed, she reveals that her uncle's funeral put a lot of things into perspective for her, in terms of the relations in her life. Like, which friends showed up at the funeral (I didn't, because of school). She had two friends, who were in town, and made flimsy excuses not to show up - which hurt her greatly, and, her parents commented that they weren't very good friends of hers.

    I told her, she must feel the same of me, as I was like them, but, if I was in town, I would have been there, and I hoped she knew that. She told me, she understood, as did her parents, because school/education is a valid reason/excuse (only one). But, that, I didn't even call, and she wanted me to call, and, I wasn't there for her.

    In my defense, I told her that I didn't really know that she was this affected by it, given the history of her family with said uncle and his family (and them not being close), and she should have called me, and told me, and I would have been there. I also told her, 'you know me, I'm not very sentimental, and sometimes, these stuff just goes over my head. I'm sorry.'

    She laughed, and agreed, and said that she knew I was the exception, the special case, because of the way I am. It's not willfully, nor on purpose, that I was being a prick in her times of trouble, nor was I making up flimsy excuses (like her other 2 best friends).

    Regardless, we had a lot to talk about, and, I came out feeling/with the revelation, that sometimes, my limitations with emotions is a huge barrier for me and those close to me. And, that I get excused because it's just the way Q is. On the flip side, I feel frustration that there's this paramount (to me, anyway) expectation of emotions from me, given social etiquette and situations. Which makes me feel like a failure even before I've begun, because sometimes I truly have no idea when something of an emotional nature is expected, and I have no justification to give, after the fact...except to ad-nauseum repeat, you know me, I just never get it. Which is getting tiring, for me, so I can imagine for those close to me.

    So, being emotional (i.e. taking emotions to greater length, 'overly so') may be the exact thing called for in a situation, to show, perhaps, care, sympathy, understanding, and for those of us, on the complete opposite side - like me - a little wistful and envious of how easy it is to go there for some of you guys. And, thus a question, how do you get there? What should I be mindful of? Tap into? To be emotional? Did I do anything wrong (wasn't there enough) for said friend?

    That was long, but, had to get off my chest, as it really hit me how insensitive I can be at times, without really realizing.

  3. #123
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    No worries at all. You can put me into whichever corner of the ring suits you, as long as I am now aware that this is how you gain perspective.
    Thanks.

    But I'm actually becoming aware that this is one way in which I avoid dealing with things. Essentially, I use my first impression of other people's opinions as a jumping-off point to express my own opinions as a compromise. It's one way (though probably not the best way) you could use Fe to express Ni. I'm casting them in roles that result in them appearing to play out something that leads you to my idea when you look at it from that perspective. As a bonus, it even makes me look like I'm seeking to create compromise rather than arguing against another's perspective. Sigh... it's really scary to think how long I've been doing this to people, subtly twisting their opinions into a medium of self-expression, or drawing them into casting themselves in ways that appear to validate my perspective so that I won't have to look as if I'm doing it myself. Perhaps even because I'm incapable of doing it myself well enough that my idea will be taken seriously, or because I want it to seem as if it's standing on something more solid than mere logic.

    Essentially... I construe and/or set up the situation so that my idea is appealing. And I often do it unconsciously. What's unnerving is that I just realized that I was doing it, that I'm inclined to do it, and that there's potential for unfairness and destruction in doing so.

    I don't know why this is, but I seem to perceive the very fact that two forces see a situation in polar opposite terms as a more compelling validation for whatever is in the middle, or a third solution that transcends their perspectives, than any logical argument could ever be. Which is probably why I'm always looking for it, or even unconsciously creating it where it doesn't really exist.

  4. #124
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Regardless, we had a lot to talk about, and, I came out feeling/with the revelation, that sometimes, my limitations with emotions is a huge barrier for me and those close to me. And, that I get excused because it's just the way Q is. On the flip side, I feel frustration that there's this paramount (to me, anyway) expectation of emotions from me, given social etiquette and situations. Which makes me feel like a failure even before I've begun, because sometimes I truly have no idea when something of an emotional nature is expected, and I have no justification to give, after the fact...except to ad-nauseum repeat, you know me, I just never get it. Which is getting tiring, for me, so I can imagine for those close to me.
    There are so many ways to look at this. I understand where your friend is coming from and I'm glad she understands you, too. But it seems that the scales are skewed towards feeling types learning to accept us, as if there should only be one way of thinking and that they happen to encompass it. I am not uncaring, I just care about different things. I think we all want people to behave as we would. In her case, she wanted people to sit next to her or call her. In my case, I would rather be left alone. I don't like burdening others. So I leave others alone when they are going through things. Then I get the bitchslap email later about how I am uncaring, when I really believed that I was showing the ultimate respect. (like you said, you assumed she needed time and you gave it to her).

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm casting them in roles that result in them appearing to play out something that leads you to my idea when you look at it from that perspective. As a bonus, it even makes me look like I'm seeking to create compromise rather than arguing against another's perspective. Sigh... it's really scary to think how long I've been doing this to people, subtly twisting their opinions into a medium of self-expression, or drawing them into casting themselves in ways that appear to validate my perspective so that I won't have to look as if I'm doing it myself. Perhaps even because I'm incapable of doing it myself well enough that my idea will be taken seriously, or because I want it to seem as if it's standing on something more solid than mere logic.
    I knew what you were doing. It's ok. It's cool that you noticed this about yourself, though. In my blog, I just wrote about how I am involved with so many ENFJs in my life. So I am used to this sort of behavior. And this is the epitome of what I call ENFJ manipulation, but really it's a mere (misguided?) survival technique and a desire for harmony, without having to take a stance of your own. I can't be the judge of right or wrong, and I won't try. If you feel unhappy with this aspect of your personality, I suppose it's a positive thing to actually be able to identify it. Don't beat yourself up.

  5. #125
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    There are so many ways to look at this. I understand where your friend is coming from and I'm glad she understands you, too. But it seems that the scales are skewed towards feeling types learning to accept us, as if there should only be one way of thinking and that they happen to encompass it.
    Feeling types often feel the same pressure to be more like thinking types in order to be accepted. It depends on the situation.

    I think we all want people to behave as we would.
    Yup.

    I try not to let what I want get in the way of who the person is.

    To Qre:us -- If you want, you can hang out with me and eventually I'll rub off on you.

  6. #126
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Feeling types often feel the same pressure to be more like thinking types in order to be accepted. It depends on the situation.
    Yes, I know but I am talking about the sheer volume of times that compromise must be made on either side. The scale is inherently tipped, it's just the way it is. I'm assuming it's even more so for T women and F males.

    To Qre:us -- If you want, you can hang out with me and eventually I'll rub off on you.
    tsk tsk, you are supposed to be rubbing off on me. *coughs*

  7. #127
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I knew what you were doing. It's ok. It's cool that you noticed this about yourself, though. In my blog, I just wrote about how I am involved with so many ENFJs in my life. So I am used to this sort of behavior. And this is the epitome of what I call ENFJ manipulation, but really it's a mere (misguided?) survival technique and a desire for harmony, without having to take a stance of your own. I can't be the judge of right or wrong, and I won't try. If you feel unhappy with this aspect of your personality, I suppose it's a positive thing to actually be able to identify it. Don't beat yourself up.
    Interesting. Yes, I guess that is part of it. At least now I realize that my motives weren't completely flawed, even if the results can be.

    Although in my case, I guess there's a little more to it than just a desire for harmony. It's got something to do with perceiving the tendency of human beings to perceive and respond to things in terms of dualities, thus often missing something important that doesn't fit into them, as a truth about the nature of things that almost transcends logic. Basically, it's a belief that extremes are less likely to be representative of truth or what's desirable, than balance is.

  8. #128
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Yes, I know but I am talking about the sheer volume of times that compromise must be made on either side. The scale is inherently tipped, it's just the way it is. I'm assuming it's even more so for T women and F males.
    That's in your perspective, as a thinking type. Some feeling types would say it is the opposite.

    tsk tsk, you are supposed to be rubbing off on me. *coughs*
    *rubs on you*

    How's that?

  9. #129
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Interesting. Yes, I guess that is part of it. At least now I realize that my motives weren't completely flawed, even if the results can be.

    Although in my case, I guess there's a little more to it than just a desire for harmony. It's got something to do with perceiving the tendency of human beings to perceive and respond to things in terms of dualities, thus often missing something important that doesn't fit into them, as a truth about the nature of things that almost transcends logic. Basically, it's a belief that extremes are less likely to be representative of truth or what's desirable, than balance is.
    Right, but that's what I meant about striving for harmony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    That's in your perspective, as a thinking type. Some feeling types would say it is the opposite.
    alright, sure. we'll go with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    *rubs on you*

    How's that?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am wondering how Fs will react if I say that the most stabile and harmonic relationship beetween two people is the one between two "robot" ?


    I am just asking.
    Even if it's "stable" does that mean that it's passionate, happy, or enduring love? Stability isn't everything, in fact, many times people are more honest, issues get resolved, and they grow closer from occasional emotional arguments.

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