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  1. #101
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    It seems as if this entire argument is based on assumptions.

    LA has a tendency to assume that a person's feelings influence their reasoning to the point of making it unreliable, while Jenocyde has a tendency to assume that a person's reasoning can be valid regardless of their present feelings.

    The problem with both of these assumptions is that they aren't universally applicable, and are largely dependent on the specific situation and individual in question, because there isn't a single right answer to this question. Sometimes feelings interfere with a person's reasoning and make it incorrect, and sometimes they don't. The disagreement is over which is more often the case.

    Hmm... I wonder if this is why Sensors tend to dislike it when we make and act on assumptions? Because often assumptions aren't applicable to a specific situation?

  2. #102
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It seems as if this entire argument is based on assumptions.

    LA has a tendency to assume that a person's feelings influence their reasoning to the point of making it unreliable, while Jenocyde has a tendency to assume that a person's reasoning can be valid regardless of their present feelings.

    The problem with both of these assumptions is that they aren't universally applicable, and are largely dependent on the specific situation and individual in question, because there isn't a single right answer to this question. Sometimes feelings interfere with a person's reasoning and make it incorrect, and sometimes they don't.
    That is a huge assumption your part and is not what I've been saying.

  3. #103
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    That is a huge assumption your part and is not what I've been saying.
    I probably can't understand what you've been saying. I prefer to interpret things as broadly as possible, and what you're saying is probably so specific that it's beyond my comprehension.

    To be honest, I didn't really examine what you said carefully. I just skimmed over the exchange and got a picture in my head that intrigued me because of how well it aligned with your respective MBTI types, so I wanted to express it. I guess I was more interested in the implications of my own idea about what you thought, than I was in understanding what you actually thought. Sorry.

  4. #104
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The "I know, that's what I said" comment is confusing me. You said "However, there can be times someone appears to be level-headed yet it's clear they have a stake in the outcome of the discussion. That's when I want nothing more to do with it." And I said that they are not mutually exclusive. Being level headed does not mean that you don't have a clear stake in the conversation. I'm confused on what you are agreeing with.
    Level-headed is synonymous with "fair" and "balanced." But if one has a stake in a discussion, they are not being fair or balanced.

    The insulting aspect of being called emotional when you are not has no bearing whatsoever on a perceived stigma. I would be just as insulted if I were called a man, when I am clearly not. But being a man is not a stigma.
    Well, it depends on why you perceive the person to be calling you a man, right? If they just happened to mistake you for a man (say, online, where gender is not so clear), would you be insulted? It was a clear mistake. But if they say "You're such a man," in a debate, that was for sure meant to be an insult.

    And sensing is not the only function that pays attention to facts. I analyze and state facts from my Ti perspective.
    Right. But when someone makes a statement like the one EffEm stated, they are essentially saying you can't perceive the greater meaning behind the literal. IOW, you are without intuition.

  5. #105
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I'm not claiming to know exactly what they are emotional about and what it is directed to, just that they are. Why try to deny it (not asking to you, but generally)? What they are specifically getting frustrated about in the discussion is not the issue here, it's that the person is frustrated and angry, yet claims they are being coolheaded.
    For an NT, though, it IS the issue. We can be agitated at the fact that the other person isn't listening, or refuses to hear any points but their own. We can, as jenocyde said, be frustrated that we've chosen to get into an argument with someone when it's clear that it's pointless. We can be frustrated because now we have to explain something to someone for the next 30 minutes and we didn't even care that much in the first place. We can be annoyed with ourselves for not finding the right words to convey our meaning. We can be agitated about ALL of the above and STILL not be emotional about the actual thing we're arguing. So from our perspective, we still are coolheaded about the topic, but we have an extra layer of irritation that we're having to deal with. If you read that as anger about the topic itself, rather than the frustration it is, and state as much, chances are you'll see actual anger then.

    Right. But when someone makes a statement like the one EffEm stated, they are essentially saying you can't perceive the greater meaning behind the literal. IOW, you are without intuition.
    No, that's not really what he was saying. He was talking about arguing with people who reject logic altogether in favor of how they're feeling--ignoring the facts willfully because they feel a certain way.
    Something Witty

  6. #106
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Right. But when someone makes a statement like the one EffEm stated, they are essentially saying you can't perceive the greater meaning behind the literal. IOW, you are without intuition.
    Ne is very different from Ni. We look for implications, not "meaning".

  7. #107
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I probably can't understand what you've been saying.
    We've deviated significantly, but basically:

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Lol, but the thing is, I may acknowledge feelings but the recipient may not feel that I am not acknowledging them enough or in the right way. I just think some conversations can do well if you keep your emotions in check. And some are of an emotional nature and they can't be avoided. Maturity lies in being able to recognize the difference between the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Yes, that's the sum of it. Have you ever tried to have a rational conversation with a 4 year old? Same principle. If someone is not mentally mature, no use in beating them over the head. Might as well just pat them on it and say "let's agree to disagree". This goes for whether someone is "too emotional" or if someone is "too obtuse". Logic takes no sides.

    Of course we have emotions... How funny is it if I say that everyone knows that xNFPs don't have thoughts? Touch, right? hahahaha...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Level-headed is synonymous with "fair" and "balanced." But if one has a stake in a discussion, they are not being fair or balanced.
    Level headed means calm and sensible. Nothing is ever fair or balanced, although we may strive to be that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Well, it depends on why you perceive the person to be calling you a man, right? If they just happened to mistake you for a man (say, online, where gender is not so clear), would you be insulted? It was a clear mistake. But if they say "You're such a man," in a debate, that was for sure meant to be an insult.
    Well, then I guess I must have been insulted many times over without realizing it. When I get into discussions with a lot of my more emotional friends they always tell me that I am just like a man. Which is confusing to me because I assume they mean the stereotype of using logic over feelings to make decisions, when they were really just trying to insult me? I still see no stigma in admitting you have emotions or in thinking like a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Right. But when someone makes a statement like the one EffEm stated, they are essentially saying you can't perceive the greater meaning behind the literal. IOW, you are without intuition.
    I think this is a misunderstanding. Iwakar was asking why no one sees logic as a bad thing while they see emotions as a bad thing. We tried to explain that in some instances people do see logic as a bad thing, especially in an emotional conversation, in which case logic is often dismissed.

    Knowing and stating the facts does not mean that you are using less intuition. However, ignoring the facts could possibly mean that you are though, because you don't see (or want to see) how the facts fit into the larger whole of the emotion based discussion. It's like when someone is crying over a break up and you mention their own part in it. Then they scream that they don't care about the facts they just care about how they feel. In which case, logic is somewhat demonized and put on the back burner to the emotional state. Which can be a valid thing to do. But this is often why my friends don't rush to confide those sorts of things in me. Because logic/facts are often seen as a negative thing.

  8. #108
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    We can be frustrated because now we have to explain something to someone for the next 30 minutes and we didn't even care that much in the first place.
    I agree with everything you said but I must give you extra props for the above statement.

  9. #109
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I agree with everything you said but I must give you extra props for the above statement.
    That can be very disheartening, can't it?

  10. #110
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    So it would be actually way more productive to just stop the conversation at that point?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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