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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    And you all sure love to mythologize.
    And you really like to assume an authority position, when I'm fairly sure you're one of the youngest and least experienced (although certainly one of the smartest in terms of sheer thinking ability) people here.

    You can still 'talk to god', just think of it as an activity to make your imagination focus on the sublime in life and not as an activity where you talk to a person in the sky.
    So far you haven't offered evidence in either direction. You're simply promoting one more viewpoint that has internal logic but has not yet really shown why it should dominate the others. *shrug*

    The problem is that Jesus anthropomorphologisticalized (ha ha) himself, concretely. Not only was he supposedly human, but he also made claims in opposition as to how you describe him. So I think it's understandable that Christians regularly make God personal and tangible. You shouldn't snub the idea so quickly, you (and me, and whomever else) are the ones going out on a limb by deviating from what record exists... even if we can't be sure of the veracity of that record. Give some flex to people where it is due.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And you really like to assume an authority position, when I'm fairly sure you're one of the youngest and least experienced (although certainly one of the smartest in terms of sheer thinking ability) people here. .
    I did not have any positions in mind, thats all Extroverted Judgment cant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So far you haven't offered evidence in either direction. You're simply promoting one more viewpoint that has internal logic but has not yet really shown why it should dominate the others. *shrug*.
    Read up on my 'what is God' thread, and while you're at it pick up on Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed and Spinoza's Theological-Political Treatise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The problem is that Jesus anthropomorphologisticalized (ha ha) himself, concretely. Not only was he supposedly human, but he also made claims in opposition as to how you describe him. So I think it's understandable that Christians regularly make God personal and tangible. You shouldn't snub the idea so quickly, you (and me, and whomever else) are the ones going out on a limb by deviating from what record exists... even if we can't be sure of the veracity of that record. Give some flex to people where it is due.

    No, no its not that I just have a problem with Jesus, but with all mythologizing period.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #33
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I don't understand why people are so hung up on the religious perspective of God. Would it help if I said I talk to the Tao? How bout if I said that I connect with the spiritual essence that unites everyone? If people wish to deny the spirit then that is their choice, but I feel a sense of sadness for those who can't feel that special connection to the world and everyone.
    Nothing wrong with having an imaginary friend so long as you dont assume that he is concrete enough for sensors to get their hands on. That is the problem with the religious notion of god.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #34
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    There is a difference between spirituality and religion. One unites man in life and the other divides man in death. Faith and worship are not the same thing.
    I'd argue that religion and spirituality are often antithetical. Spirituality promotes a radical individualist attitude, and religion a radical collectivist.

    INPs tend to gravitate towards spirituality most and repell religion, ESJs vice versa.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #35
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No, no its not that I just have a problem with Jesus, but with all mythologizing period.
    Of course an NT would have issue with relating to the "unprovable". But where is the logic for discounting it simply for that reason?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I'd argue that religion and spirituality are often antithetical. Spirituality promotes a radical individualist attitude, and religion a radical collectivist.

    INPs tend to gravitate towards spirituality most and repell religion, ESJs vice versa.
    There is nothing individualist about my spirituality.

  6. #36
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Of course an NT would have issue with relating to the "unprovable". But where is the logic for discounting it simply for that reason?.
    I certainly cant prove that the Christian god does not exist, for example. But then I ask, where did this idea come from in the first place? Is there anything that we know about how this world works that could lead us to believe that such a thing exists? Is there any empirical evidence or abstract reasoning (mathematical logic) that could lead us to the premise that God exists?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    There is nothing individualist about my spirituality.
    Spirituality can only be individualist because its all about you pursuing a higher purpose. Just like religions say, it is all about YOUR relationship with god.

    Your actions in the community can only be an entailment of you having been transformed from within.

    So, I am not sure what you mean when you say there is nothing individualist about your spirituality. Spirituality almost by definition implies other worldly, and this means it is not accessible in this world in a concrete fashion---thus can only be a personal quest.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #37
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Spirituality can only be individualist because its all about you pursuing a higher purpose. Just like religions say, it is all about YOUR relationship with god.

    Your actions in the community can only be an entailment of you having been transformed from within.
    But spirituality is the purpose. What other reason would man have for believing in ethical principles, for holding themselves to values such as integrity, or for maintaining any degree of virtue? The belief that we possess something greater within ourselves, the idea that we have obligations to ourselves and other rational beings, the very ability to percieve these social concepts as they relate to the physical world; this is proof that spirituality is the center of humanity's unity and desire for civilization. Spirituality is the purpose unto itself.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    But spirituality is the purpose. What other reason would man have for believing in ethical principles, for holding themselves to values such as integrity, or for maintaining any degree of virtue? The belief that we possess something greater within ourselves, the idea that we have obligations to ourselves and other rational beings, the very ability to percieve these social concepts as they relate to the physical world; this is proof that spirituality is the center of humanity's unity and desire for civilization. Spirituality is the purpose unto itself.

    Yes, spirituality is indeed the purpose in itself, because it is the *higher purpose*.

    Though, I do not see how in light of this there is a problem with calling spirituality an individualistic endeavor. Its crux is the individual pursuing the higher purpose. Individualism is an attitude that promotes the growth of the individual over the growth of a group.

    No, spirituality is not the center of humanity's desire for civilization because most people are not able to see the higher purpose due to their inability to focus on the big picture in life. Man's desire for unity stems from his drive to survive. People bonded with other people because they knew they couldn't make it on their own. Organized religion clearly depicts this tendency in man. As religion translates from Latin as 'binding together'.

    Religion and spirituality tend to be diametrically opposed to each other. Religion is almost exclusively about doing whatever needs to be done to produce group cohesion (radical collectivism--ESJ), and spirituality is almost exclusively about doing whatever needs to be done in order to discover a higher purpose. Religion is as concrete as it can get, spirituality is as abstract as it can get.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #39
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    ...
    Strange, I've always seen man's struggle to survive as part of spirituality. Spirituality in it's purest essence is the will of man. It is that unifying force that gives us the strength and wisdom to go on, to come together, and to work together. I imagine if it had a shape then it would be a web, with strands formed from connected living wills. If you can conceive that then you would understand why I could never see my spirituality as truly individualistic, since in essence it is the entire collected life of the universe.

    I've always considered religion to be a poor substitute for spirituality. It is the product of a corrupted philosophy and deity worship, both of which discount the unity of life and humanity.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Strange, I've always seen man's struggle to survive as part of spirituality. Spirituality in it's purest essence is the will of man. It is that unifying force that gives us the strength and wisdom to go on, to come together, and to work together. I imagine if it had a shape then it would be a web, with strands formed from connected living wills. If you can conceive that then you would understand why I could never see my spirituality as truly individualistic, since in essence it is the entire collected life of the universe. .
    Most people are not able to access the spirituality vision at all, they are just following their instincts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I've always considered religion to be a poor substitute for spirituality. It is the product of a corrupted philosophy and deity worship, both of which discount the unity of life and humanity.
    There is no connection between religion (binding people together) and looking for a quest in life that transcends this world (spirituality). Conventional man cant be spirituality because he has no vision. How could he be a seeker of a higher purpose if he can not imagine the idea of a higher purpose to begin with? You tell him a story from the Bible about the sheep and the goats and what aspects of human nature it may symbolize and he will be thinking about the literal sheep and goats.

    Though if you really are a spiritual person, (one following a higher purpose), than yes everything that you do is part of the big web. Your religious behavior is an entailment of your inner spiritual quest.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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