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  1. #61
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    ^ Oh I wish I could be sure of that. I am not able to verbalize nearly half as well as I can compose text. And that's gotten worse for me as I've gotten older. So you know, I've sent some of these difficult people emails at times and then I am accused of being too hard, direct, cold and it's shocking to them. But then they irritate the hell out of me by playing "Oh I can't understand" or "I don't remember"
    Hahaha, I don't mean to laugh but I get that all the time - the how could I possibly forget. It's so real when I say it and definitely not a game. I can't speak for your relatives but sometimes someone has to really jog my memory with specific words and context for me to remember a conversation I had 30 minutes ago!

    My brain runs a mile a minute, and my mouth even faster. I remember things much much later, but my short term memory is trash. I won't remember it now, but give me a year or two and I can remember what you were wearing when you said something. It just takes a while to process information when I finally give myself downtime to introspect.

    I know it frustrates people, and I wish I could change that. It gets embarrassing to always ask "what was your name again?"

    I guess both sides have it rough.

  2. #62
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Everything you've described is based on a simple difference in perspective:

    Extraverts base their sense of justice on the idea of a person having an obligation to interact with others. Introverts base theirs on not being a burden to the other person. Thus, both come across as arrogant to one another. And in addition, both feel that they've made every reasonable concession for the other person's arrogant behavior, but that they just keep getting their toes stepped on.

    Extraverts seem arrogant to Introverts because they feel as if they're entitled to interact with another person when there's no clear indication of interest, and feel they've done their job by making an effort to interact. Introverts seem arrogant to Extraverts because they don't feel a duty to be proactive in gaining and holding the other's interest, and feel they've done their job by minimizing their burden.

    It's really that simple. Why does no one see that both sets of (mis)perceptions are based on an incompatible sense of justice?

    Incidentally, that particular sense of justice is a huge disinclination to taking the initiative... here's an example of my thought process every time I think about contacting someone:

    "What if they're busy?" "You're no one to them. Who the hell do you think you are?" "What if you make a faux pas and they hate you?" "They'll think you're needy. No one likes a needy person." "Is this really important enough to bother them about?" "Why would they care about this? It doesn't have anything to do with them." "It's your problem, not theirs, deal with it yourself." "They'll think you're obsessed with them, and that's creepy." "They didn't explicitly give you permission to bother them today." "Don't you have anything more important to focus on than pestering other people?" "What might they end up demanding of you to reciprocate for this? Is it worth the risk of that burden?"

    Try having a day where you ask yourself those questions every time you go to interact with someone, and see how often you still interact with them.


    This is why I am so bad about calling people....I always have this sense of intruding.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #63
    Sniffles
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    Talking Shame on you kyuuei!

    This thread offends me deeply. I came here to discuss how NTs are heartless pricks, SJs are boring as fuck, which types likes to take it up the ass the most - in other words, serious intelligent dicussions regarding personality types. I did NOT come here to be insulted!

  4. #64
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Hahaha, I don't mean to laugh but I get that all the time - the how could I possibly forget. It's so real when I say it and definitely not a game. I can't speak for your relatives but sometimes someone has to really jog my memory with specific words and context for me to remember a conversation I had 30 minutes ago!

    My brain runs a mile a minute, and my mouth even faster. I remember things much much later, but my short term memory is trash. I won't remember it now, but give me a year or two and I can remember what you were wearing when you said something. It just takes a while to process information when I finally give myself downtime to introspect.

    I know it frustrates people, and I wish I could change that. It gets embarrassing to always ask "what was your name again?"

    I guess both sides have it rough.
    I suppose better to laugh than cry about it. But I have cried and ranted and screamed about these sorts of things before.

  5. #65
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I suppose better to laugh than cry about it. But I have cried and ranted and screamed about these sorts of things before.
    right back at ya. Wish I could give you an answer to make it all better. I'll really think about this one and see what I come up with.

  6. #66
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    haha. k, i do the bolded ones fo sho.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    All's fair in love and war, here's the Extroverted rebuttle to that silly list posted elsewhere. Feel free to add your own points. You know you I's are guilty of some of these!

    ...Annoying things I's do.

    1. Flake out on parties because they can't be bothered to be extroverted, then want you to suddenly convert to Introversion when you're hanging out with them.
    2. When I will not accept that the E doesn't want to be introverted at their whim.
    3. When the I's complained themselves into getting their way and you're forced to pretend that it doesn't bother you that this has happened for the third time
    4. When the I never picks up that you might need their company.
    if you call and i'm 'unavailable,' or if you need to see me to talk for some reason, TELL me so, or leave a message that you really need to talk to me; that it's very important, and i will call you back quickly, or drop things to make room for you. don't be passive-aggressive about it!

    5. When you go out together and the I pays more attention to their drink/tv than you.
    6. When I's get upset just because we try to confirm they're okay by asking a simple question instead of trying to guess what's going on in their head.
    7. When I gets annoyed by a phone call even though the E might feel more comfortable saying something over the phone
    just the way it is. i'm annoyed you don't return my email or can't write an email. a phone call is a rude interruption in my routine/day. why must i drop everything at that moment just because you desire to chat right then?

    8. They play the victim everytime an E messes up something they tried to plan via telepathy.

    9. When I doesn't talk during one-on-one time and expects us to be some jukebox on demand.
    10. When I doesn't realize that socializing means two people interact with each other, and quiet time is better left to alone time.
    11. When I refuses to keep up a conversation.
    9, 10, and 11 are pretty much the same to me. and i totally have a different viewpoint here. every since i read lenore thompson's extravert/introvert description, i can now understand why i have a hard time conversing with my e friends, in general. it's like some of the e's i know don't know how to converse in an intimate setting, one-on-one. i feel like they don't have much of interest to talk about. we just do small talk and giggle or something. i feel like i'm asking the questions, "how have you been?" or carrying the conversation during the inevitable lulls, "so, what else do you guys have planned for the summer?" or picking up on real, underlying feelings, "have you been doing well? how are things really going for you?" like, they just answer my questions and don't really reciprocate about my end of things. if i don't make conversation, it's just boring chit chat and small talk. not always. but often.

    12. When you just decide to continue to talk, the I gets upset that they didn't have time to put their two cents in.[/quote]

    many of my e friends, if they DO talk, it's incessantly and it's about themselves, never really pausing long enough to inquire (or thinking to inquire) about my take on things, etc. some of the most boring times i've had are out with e's. which makes absolutely no sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    This is going to sound horrible no matter how I say it, so I'll just say it. In my experience, Is (esp IxFx) can have these talks and promise to change and then it's all forgotten about. There isn't much resolve, for the most part. (and I just read about that in Evan's thread about dating another INFJ...) It gets exhausting, so I let it go. But yes, I always do speak up about things that bother me, but I stop if I'm not being heard. And sometimes it's just easier for me to let someone sit there and sulk if they want to - I can't be responsible for anyone's emotions if they don't share them with me.

    I know I'm not perfect, and if someone tells me something negative, I really do take it to heart, and if I feel it's valid, I will change my behaviors. Not everyone is able to step out of their comfort zones like that.
    i have decided that if someone is going to be sulky, i just let them be that way. if i've truly done something wrong, like 'rib' a friend too much, i'll apologize and say it's cuz i like them so much, and go on. but overall if they get their feelings hurt, that's really their own issue. and i know you know you can't really be responsible for anyone else's emotions anyway, although i can tell from reading your posts and talking with you that you do truly care about people's feelings.
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  7. #67
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Nice thread. It's interesting to hear extroverts' perspectives since you're a relative minority here.

    This concerns me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    "What if they're busy?" "You're no one to them. Who the hell do you think you are?" "What if you make a faux pas and they hate you?" "They'll think you're needy. No one likes a needy person." "Is this really important enough to bother them about?" "Why would they care about this? It doesn't have anything to do with them." "It's your problem, not theirs, deal with it yourself." "They'll think you're obsessed with them, and that's creepy." "They didn't explicitly give you permission to bother them today." "Don't you have anything more important to focus on than pestering other people?" "What might they end up demanding of you to reciprocate for this? Is it worth the risk of that burden?"

    Try having a day where you ask yourself those questions every time you go to interact with someone, and see how often you still interact with them.
    I think it's important not to confuse introversion with social anxiety or a lack of self-confidence and/or self-esteem. IMO introversion is more about you (what you enjoy/can tolerate) rather than a fear of interacting with people. I have a healthy dose of both and I think a lot of introverts may as well, but I still think they should be distinguished.

    I'm certainly guilty of a couple of the things in the OP. I'm particularly bad at keeping up conversation. Silence doesn't bother me except that I'm always worried that the other person is bored/feeling awkward. Sorry, extroverts. This is probably why I don't have many of you for friends IRL
    -end of thread-

  8. #68
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    if you call and i'm 'unavailable,' or if you need to see me to talk for some reason, TELL me so, or leave a message that you really need to talk to me; that it's very important, and i will call you back quickly, or drop things to make room for you. don't be passive-aggressive about it!
    Sometimes it's not even that deep, there is nothing urgent. When you have to ask to be considered, then it hardly seems worth it. And it doesn't feel genuine once received. Just answer the damn phone and stop hiding! The friendship can't just be on your terms alone....

    I dated an I who never wanted to go anywhere with me. He was content staying home but he never understood that I wasn't content to always be without an escort. Well, he understood it after we broke up but too little, too late. It sucked doing everything alone. I would even just accept companionship when we sit home together. It won't kill you to talk to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    , although i can tell from reading your posts and talking with you that you do truly care about people's feelings.
    Awww, I'm gonna frame that and send it to my mother with a big fat "I told you so", if you don't mind.

  9. #69
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    just the way it is. i'm annoyed you don't return my email or can't write an email. a phone call is a rude interruption in my routine/day. why must i drop everything at that moment just because you desire to chat right then?



    9, 10, and 11 are pretty much the same to me. and i totally have a different viewpoint here. every since i read lenore thompson's extravert/introvert description, i can now understand why i have a hard time conversing with my e friends, in general. it's like some of the e's i know don't know how to converse in an intimate setting, one-on-one. i feel like they don't have much of interest to talk about. we just do small talk and giggle or something. i feel like i'm asking the questions, "how have you been?" or carrying the conversation during the inevitable lulls, "so, what else do you guys have planned for the summer?" or picking up on real, underlying feelings, "have you been doing well? how are things really going for you?" like, they just answer my questions and don't really reciprocate about my end of things. if i don't make conversation, it's just boring chit chat and small talk. not always. but often.
    The above confuses me because it seems like you want to talk (or want the friendship) only on your terms. You want to talk, but not when we call - only when you want to bond.

    The first part: sometimes things get lost in translation when writing. You can't understand tone. And also, you may get the answer quicker if we talk, since we can hammer out whatever things need to be said/done, rather than wait for a potentially confusing email that may need more clarification. Also, I tend to do a million things at once, it's easier to have you on speakerphone while I work, rather than stop what I'm doing to reply. And not everyone is good with writing.

    The second part: For me, it aggravates me when someone forces the conversation to be about me. I don't like being picked apart for the sake of conversation. I rarely ask people about themselves in that manner either. First of all, 'how are you' is too vague of a question. I never know how to answer it. And it's appropriate for me to ask/be asked about what books I've read lately, but not how things are going for me. It seems intrusive and also like a contrived "bonding" session. I really can't do it. When we start chatting, things will come out on their own. But I don't like it when the conversation is about probing me, that's what it feels like. Like I'm being examined. Chit chat and small talk aren't really boring to me. What's boring is discussing feelings. And I don't volley the question back because I don't wish to enter that kind of conversation. Life is rough enough, when I'm with my friends, I want to laugh and have a good time. Crazy how differently we see things, right?

  10. #70
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    This is going to sound horrible no matter how I say it, so I'll just say it. In my experience, Is (esp IxFx) can have these talks and promise to change and then it's all forgotten about. There isn't much resolve, for the most part. (and I just read about that in Evan's thread about dating another INFJ...) It gets exhausting, so I let it go. But yes, I always do speak up about things that bother me, but I stop if I'm not being heard. And sometimes it's just easier for me to let someone sit there and sulk if they want to - I can't be responsible for anyone's emotions if they don't share them with me.

    I know I'm not perfect, and if someone tells me something negative, I really do take it to heart, and if I feel it's valid, I will change my behaviors. Not everyone is able to step out of their comfort zones like that.
    SO TRUE. Especially INFJs. It's almost like the conversation did not happen at all. They are also the worst at apologizing.

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