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  1. #11
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    I have the most difficulties getting my thinking across to SJ, especially older ISTJs. It's not so much an issue with reasoning as finding a common basis of communication. I tend to like generalized principles, ISTJs like factual examples. So often times they find my "cases" to be too vague and non-descriptive to illustrate my points. So it's like empty arguments without support to them.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  2. #12
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Hah, interesting question and formulation.

    I've found that trying to reason with people is relatively counter-productive because most people have their own path to get to the answer, and it's usually different from mine. So trying to convince people I'm right, manipulate them to believe as I do, or make people think and have my ideas or feelings is just a waste of time.

    What I do try to do to the best of my ability is to UNDERSTAND. And THAT is not always easy, but I do make it a point to try my BEST.... I have a natural ability to see things from other perspectives, and teaching has honed or trained my ability to have respectful reactions to other people's points of view. Although I admit that in my spare time, I often revert to other, more trusted forms, I have become quite a bit better in that respect.

    That being said, it is quite difficult to understand INXJ, which makes them quite fascinating. ESJs are quite frustrating to understand, as are ESPs. ISJs and ISPs are about the most difficult to understand. Well, hell, EVERYONE is difficult to understand. Damn it, even *I* am difficult to understand.

    What the hell am I talking about? Well, what I mean is, I cannot CHANGE other people but I can help change my PERCEPTIONS of others....and if I try to understand where other people are coming from, that helps more than trying to REASON with people and CHANGE them. If that makes any sense, which I'm afraid it doesn't. Perhaps I need to give my brain a break, sleep, and get back to this tomorrow, because I feel like my Ne is out of control due to all my other functions being asleep right now. At least that's my official excuse. I'll edit it tomorrow and make it more - well - make a bit more sense.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  3. #13
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ENTPs for me...

    I'm starting to get the hang of it though..I think
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #14
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    What the hell am I talking about? Well, what I mean is, I cannot CHANGE other people but I can help change my PERCEPTIONS of others....and if I try to understand where other people are coming from, that helps more than trying to REASON with people and CHANGE them. If that makes any sense, which I'm afraid it doesn't. Perhaps I need to give my brain a break, sleep, and get back to this tomorrow, because I feel like my Ne is out of control due to all my other functions being asleep right now. At least that's my official excuse. I'll edit it tomorrow and make it more - well - make a bit more sense.
    Hmmmm that's an interesting way of looking at things. (btw - You're definitely Fi) I share your views that it's important to understand others and see things from their perspective, however I dislike things to be one way. If I'm going to spend time and effort to understand them, then it's only fair that they do the same for me. That's what reasoning means to me. I try to convince you, and you try the same to me. Hopefully in the process we arrive at some kind of truth or at least mutual understanding.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  5. #15
    Senior Member FC3S's Avatar
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    Only type I have a hard time reasoning with is an ENFJ.
    ESTP - Definition: "Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target a 120 km away, with an aratech sniper rifle and tri-light scope.
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  6. #16
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Hmmmm that's an interesting way of looking at things. (btw - You're definitely Fi) I share your views that it's important to understand others and see things from their perspective, however I dislike things to be one way. If I'm going to spend time and effort to understand them, then it's only fair that they do the same for me. That's what reasoning means to me. I try to convince you, and you try the same to me. Hopefully in the process we arrive at some kind of truth or at least mutual understanding.
    This is really interesting, too! Because I think I keep more open - truth kind of evolves, you know. Well, what I mean is that there may be absolute truth, but human beings can probably not perceive it with our limited capability in a physical dimension; that means that we need to interact with as many people as possible to increase this understanding. To find other pieces of the puzzle and increase our collective consciousness is an important key as to why we are here. Of course, we all need to develop our individual consciousness too, and I think this development, this step to finding another piece of the ultimate truth or reality is only possible through understanding concepts, ideas, other people, and incorporating what fits into our own mosaic. Soooo, I guess what I'm trying to say is that forcing people to accept my point of view would not be the key as much as sharing and exchanging and molding and fitting and shaping the bits to fit. Whereas you might maybe (??? not sure here) see the puzzle pieces as fitting together perhaps like a cardboard puzzle (already cut, we need to fit the right pieces together), I see them more as clay...that we can mold the pieces to fit...but this is not manipulation, but rather reworking to make sense of our life and existence.

    So interaction with others is a means to make things fit in the mosaic. Even now, as I speak to you, my goal is not for you to necessarily say, "Yes, you are right - I agree with you"; in fact, that would be in essence uninteresting, as you have nothing 'else' to offer. That's why interacting with people who are 'different' IS appealing because it helps me to shape and develop my understanding of life, ideas, concepts, and many other things. It helps me to expand my perception and enlighten me. And THAT is why (even when I banter and sometimes act like a crazy nut, but that's just me being silly sometimes) I'm on this forum in the long run: Namely, to understand, to grow, to develop, to see and hear new things and to incorporate what makes sense and to discard what no longer fits, which changes and expands according to the 'new' knowledge that then makes more sense. Um, did that make sense? LOL
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #17
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    what I mean is that there may be absolute truth, but human beings can probably not perceive it with our limited capability in a physical dimension; that means that we need to interact with as many people as possible to increase this understanding.

    I think this development, this step to finding another piece of the ultimate truth or reality is only possible through understanding concepts, ideas, other people, and incorporating what fits into our own mosaic.


    That's why interacting with people who are 'different' IS appealing because it helps me to shape and develop my understanding of life, ideas, concepts, and many other things.
    Makes sense to me LL I especially agree with the above.

    It's funny how both of our end goals seem to be the same thing but we go about it in completely different ways.

    I see them more as clay...that we can mold the pieces to fit...but this is not manipulation, but rather reworking to make sense of our life and existence.
    Instead of trying to mold pieces like clay, for me I take bits and pieces of what makes sense to me and piece them together into something new. Kind of like a phoenix from ashes sort of deal. I'm very much an extremist.

    I guess if you are building from scratch, things can take on a "right vs wrong" flavor because you have to make a decision what's truth, which can lead to something that feels like a "I'm right and you're wrong" scenario.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  8. #18
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    ESFJ, obviously.

  9. #19
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    ENTJ, no question. I always try to come out on top of an ENTJ I know during a debate, but then it turns into an argument.
    I just want people to analyze this sentence and relate it to the topic.

    Then have a nice chuckle with me.
    wails from the crypt.

  10. #20
    Member Seraph's Avatar
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    I can't really speak in generalities, but can definitely attest to my personal difficulties with certain ISTJs or an ESFJ.

    The more difficult of the two, the ESFJ, is a former friend of mine and was incredibly (almost impossible) to reason with. We meshed fine in a scholastic setting, but we frequently clashed over subjects I didn't really highlight as important. A typical argument would consist of:

    Friend: yadda yadda yadda I wasn't happy you did this.
    Me: Ah I'm sorry for that. (Thinking it wasn't a particularly important issue)
    Friend: See you aren't getting your emotions out and always turn into a brick wall yadda yadda
    Me: Sorry...?
    From there the conversation would degenerate into a shouting spree on her part which left me in a state of confusion. No amount of reason was ever getting through to her in that feeling-fraught frenzy.

    I don't encounter the same emotional problems with the ISTJs, but it is almost as though I was reasoning with rocks. They just aren't open to new ideas, and any engagement has to be carefully conceived so as to not surprise them. With these two in particular, if I spring an idea on them it is met with the greatest of resistance unless it fits in with their own framework. While feeling secure within one's comfort zone is a widespread occurrence, in this situation it is more pronounced-- which I do attribute mostly to being ISTJs.

    So I find both of these types difficult to reason with from personal experience, the former from a communication failure and the latter from a resistance to communicate and entertain new ideas or reasoning.

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