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  1. #61
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, it wasn't my intent at all. I didn't create that post with a crappy attitude; I projected my thoughts and advise in my own voice from my own experiences--I guess I'm a natural sappy speech writer.
    In my opinion, the "you should smile at people" and "you should be etc." advise is still really crappy, but it's my opinion, not a fact. I do see now that you were looking for concrete advise on real actions to take; I apologize for not catching that beforehand.
    I see I was snappy in my response also, and I apologize for calling you "sappy". As noted, I'm very shy, and I've been so painfully awkward that I've been physically shaking in job interviews. However, I have improved, so I do feel my experience and suggestions are valid.

    Why do I suggest something like smiling? Because people have told me in the past that I look unfriendly. I am very timid and reserved, as many INFx's are, and that is often misconstrued as being cold and rude. I began to make an effort to smile more, and it offsets the cold impression - I seem more approachable. I am not suggesting to go around with a smile plastered on your face like a moron, but be aware of your body language and facial expressions. They could be sending a message you don't intend to send.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #62
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stigmatica View Post
    Your writings are like the antithesis of the stereotypical view on New Yorkers... certainly Brooklyn. My first experience with New Yorkers didn't come til I was 18. The main difference in general between them and a Southerner, is they tended to be more outspoken and honest. If a typical Southerner tells you your being stupid, you've probably really pissed him/her off. If a New Yorker tells you, they're just telling it like it is, no real insult intended. Am I right? You just have to learn that the degrees of meaning are quite different.
    I guess that's true for us locals. But this city is teeming with non-native NYers, who are less blunt but just as friendly. How are my writings the antithesis? Or better yet, what stereotype do you hold? I lived in Atlanta for a while and worked out in Alpharetta. It sucked so bad because everyone smiled in my face at the job, even when I was being superbitch, and it felt so fake - like saccharin. I couldn't get used to it. It scared me, actually.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    So I suppose what I'm really asking is, do people ever go places to engage in non-goal oriented interaction, simply because they feel like interacting with or observing interactions with people? And, is this considered acceptable?
    Yes, and yes. Most of the time, this is considered small talk. For example, if a group of people are waiting in line for a long time, someone (we'll call him Person A), at some point, will talk about how frustrated they are at standing in line for so long. Someone else near them will express agreement (Person B), Person A feels validated and a little less frustrated as will Person B and so will all the people standing around Persons A and B. After finding a common connnection (frustration over standing in line), Person A and Person B may begin in a dialogue about something else that happened to them that day. This "small talk" may or may not graduate beyond topical subjects, or it may proceed into a deeper subject.

    Stangers often converse with each other to relieve tension (in the situation above) and establish a common bond. This is an unconscious goal and most people participate in this interaction without realising it.

    People often go people-watching. This is why cafes and small shops with large windows/outdoor seating are very popular. We love watching each other! Many people also regularly attend these eateries because the food is good, but perhaps the company is equally good. Miniature communities begin to develop among the staff and the "regulars". You also see similar behaviour in pubs and bars.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  4. #64
    Senior Member stigmatica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I guess that's true for us locals. But this city is teeming with non-native NYers, who are less blunt but just as friendly. How are my writings the antithesis? Or better yet, what stereotype do you hold? I lived in Atlanta for a while and worked out in Alpharetta. It sucked so bad because everyone smiled in my face at the job, even when I was being superbitch, and it felt so fake - like saccharin. I couldn't get used to it. It scared me, actually.
    lol - I lived in Alpharetta for about a year. I hated it. Atlanta is not the South, it's like it's own region. But yes, in general, you don't go by words in the South, you go by actions and facial expressions. It's a whole different communication methodology.

    EDIT: As for stereotypical NY, you're supposed to be mean, impatient, and short tempered. That's the stereotype. Not really true, it's a result of the differences in communication styles being misunderstood, I think.

  5. #65
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stigmatica View Post
    lol - I lived in Alpharetta for about a year. I hated it. Atlanta is not the South, it's like it's own region. But yes, in general, you don't go by words in the South, you go by actions and facial expressions. It's a whole different communication methodology.

    EDIT: As for stereotypical NY, you're supposed to be mean, impatient, and short tempered. That's the stereotype. Not really true, it's a result of the differences in communication styles being misunderstood, I think.
    Ahhh, see, I would say: direct, concise and to the point. We are soooo polite that we don't want to waste your time with frivolous niceties.

    In reality, NY is a melting pot and has every breed of crazy you can imagine - of course there are a few short tempered mean people around. But that's not typical, because there is no typical. But people are truly helpful, for the most part. Especially since 9/11.

  6. #66
    Senior Member rainoneventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I see I was snappy in my response also, and I apologize for calling you "sappy". As noted, I'm very shy, and I've been so painfully awkward that I've been physically shaking in job interviews. However, I have improved, so I do feel my experience and suggestions are valid.

    Why do I suggest something like smiling? Because people have told me in the past that I look unfriendly. I am very timid and reserved, as many INFx's are, and that is often misconstrued as being cold and rude. I began to make an effort to smile more, and it offsets the cold impression - I seem more approachable. I am not suggesting to go around with a smile plastered on your face like a moron, but be aware of your body language and facial expressions. They could be sending a message you don't intend to send.
    No need to apologize, I mean I really am a sappy writer, lol. I can't stop myself.

    Yeah, body language definitely has a lot to do with how others perceive you. I realized recently that I have this naturally stoned/tired look on my face, so now I can imagine all the different things people might be thinking about me.. I've been trying to be more aware of that.

    I don't want people to think I'm this mean person (or some drug addict), because I'm not, but I don't want to constantly worry about how I look to other people either. There would be way too many people to worry about, seriously.

    Yeah, it would be a ton easier if I had a naturally sunny expression and I was a naturally sociable person, but I am who I am, and if the person isn't a complete jerk, they'd be willing to change their initial judgment of me once they start getting to know me. It's not my problem whether someone pisses their pants when they see the expression on my face, y'know?

    But that's mostly in my case; I understand now that smiling and trying to be more friendly will help some gain more confidence in themselves, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're basing their self-esteem on approval.

    I guess what I really meant in my previous post is that it's fine to change if you want to change, but only for yourself. If you're changing yourself and going against your own nature merely to please others, life probably won't feel nearly as fulfilling.

    Just because you don't want to be more sociable doesn't mean you're not stepping out of your comfort zone and aren't open to change; it takes a lot of guts to be yourself, or change in a manner not based on someone else's opinions.

    If sticking with your own rules and striving to remain true to yourself despite everyone else's opinions means being selfish, then I think being selfish wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. And no, that doesn't mean having a closed mind. It means taking in the world around you and deciding what's best for you.

    Some people will label you as "rude" or "conceited" or "selfish," but why does that mean you should place their opinions higher than your own? Don't you already know yourself better than anyone?

    It's inevitable that people will dislike you for how you look, or how you talk, or how you dress. But when people like you for just being you, even some random passerby, then it's... great.

    Changing yourself because you feel no one likes the way you are is exactly what nourishes those insecure feelings.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm saying you should walk around flipping everyone off and insulting their mothers, or spitting out your gum on a interviewer's desk because you feel like it.

    You just need to be aware that not everyone is going to like you. Hey, if you're willing to face the consequences after telling someone their mom is fat, then do whatever you want. I mean, telling people their advice is crappy isn't nice, but that's what I honestly think, it's not that I'm purposefully trying to insult anyone--I really wasn't. But I was willing to receive bad reactions to get my own thoughts out there.

    Basically... living for approval is stupid. It's something I've been struggling with for a while.

    Stuff I've been doing to conquer my insecurities is asking myself why I'm unhappy. I'm mostly unhappy because I feel like I'm not "good" enough to interact with anyone. So now, I'm trying to do the things I want to do, while actively trying to block out all those negative thoughts or worrying what people think of me. Because my worries of people's opinions is the main reason why I'm not out trying to find a job and just doing shit I want to do.

    I'm taking a walk in the park, and a person passes by--immediately, I feel as if I "should" smile and wave at them, because that's the nice thing to do, right? And I'm a nice person, right? And I don't want them to think I'm mean, right?
    But that type of thinking is not right.
    Why do I have to prove who I am to someone when I already know me better than anyone?

    So I kept right on walking without smiling or waving or anything--because I didn't want to. And that was freaking hard.

    (Again, I hope this makes sense, I jumble my thoughts around a lot and I edited it like 50 times.)
    "So I say, live and let live. Thatís my motto. Live and let live.
    Anyone who canít go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker."
    - George Carlin

  7. #67
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    Edit: Stuff I've been doing to conquer my insecurities is asking myself why I'm unhappy. I'm mostly unhappy because I feel like I'm not "good" enough to interact with anyone. So now, I'm trying to do the things I want to do, while actively trying to block out all those negative thoughts or worrying what people "think" of me. Because my worries of people's opinions is the main reason why I'm not out trying to find a job and just doing shit I want to do.

    I'm taking a walk in the park, and a person passes by--immediately, I feel as if I "should" smile and wave at them, because that's the nice thing to do, right? And I'm a nice person, right?
    But that type of thinking is not right.
    Why do I have to prove who I am to someone when I already know me better than anyone?

    So I kept right on walking without smiling or waving or anything--because I didn't want to. And that was freaking hard.
    I can totally relate to your entire story, but this is the part I found particularly interesting. I know what you mean with not feeling good enough to talk to others, it's the typical over-analysing I have as well. I can't really give you one exercise to get rid of it, but let me assure you that it's just as much a result of little socializing as it is a cause. If you have too little confidence in social situations, just learn some rather fixed rules to initiate and maintain social contact you'll find that you can maintain a 'plan', and that you start thinking less about your insecurities.

    I've got this friend who has the greatest 'fuck-it' mentality. He doesn't care what other people think about him at all, which allows him to without a hesitation engage groups of people into conversation. If it works out, great, he made new friends, if it doesn't work out, next conversation. And the best thing is, he is able to analyse what he's doing, and learn from it.

  8. #68
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It can be like that on the subway, since everyone is wearing their headphones and trying not to make eye contact. But if you ask someone for directions or start commenting on the weird guy screaming about the apocalypse, you will notice that half the car will join in on the convo.

    But as a whole, I think we New Yorkers are pretty damn extroverted, but don't really show it unless approached.
    That's what I mean though, on the subways, buses, going to work, whatever. Not during a parade or anything like that. And yeah, they don't show it easily.

  9. #69
    Senior Member rainoneventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    I can totally relate to your entire story, but this is the part I found particularly interesting. I know what you mean with not feeling good enough to talk to others, it's the typical over-analysing I have as well. I can't really give you one exercise to get rid of it, but let me assure you that it's just as much a result of little socializing as it is a cause. If you have too little confidence in social situations, just learn some rather fixed rules to initiate and maintain social contact you'll find that you can maintain a 'plan', and that you start thinking less about your insecurities.

    I've got this friend who has the greatest 'fuck-it' mentality. He doesn't care what other people think about him at all, which allows him to without a hesitation engage groups of people into conversation. If it works out, great, he made new friends, if it doesn't work out, next conversation. And the best thing is, he is able to analyse what he's doing, and learn from it.
    Agh yeah I agree, it's a vicious cycle--I'm afraid of socializing because I don't socialize often, and the more I don't socialize, the worse I get. And that's a good idea; I've found that a simple thing like trying to maintain eye-contact makes me focus less on myself.

    Man, I really admire people like that. I have a friend that's the same; she has this way of bringing out the best in everyone because they recognize that since she's comfortable being herself despite any of their opinions, then why don't they follow her example too?
    "So I say, live and let live. Thatís my motto. Live and let live.
    Anyone who canít go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker."
    - George Carlin

  10. #70
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    I don't want people to think I'm this mean person (or some drug addict), because I'm not, but I don't want to constantly worry about how I look to other people either. There would be way too many people to worry about, seriously.

    I guess what I really meant in my previous post is that it's fine to change if you want to change, but only for yourself. If you're changing yourself and going against your own nature merely to please others, life probably won't feel nearly as fulfilling.

    If sticking with your own rules and striving to remain true to yourself despite everyone else's opinions means being selfish, then I think being selfish wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. And no, that doesn't mean having a closed mind. It means taking in the world around you and deciding what's best for you.

    Some people will label you as "rude" or "conceited" or "selfish," but why does that mean you should place their opinions higher than your own? Don't you already know yourself better than anyone?

    It's inevitable that people will dislike you for how you look, or how you talk, or how you dress. But when people like you for just being you, even some random passerby, then it's... great.

    Changing yourself because you feel no one likes the way you are is exactly what nourishes those insecure feelings.

    You just need to be aware that not everyone is going to like you.

    Basically... living for approval is stupid. It's something I've been struggling with for a while.

    Stuff I've been doing to conquer my insecurities is asking myself why I'm unhappy. I'm mostly unhappy because I feel like I'm not "good" enough to interact with anyone. So now, I'm trying to do the things I want to do, while actively trying to block out all those negative thoughts or worrying what people think of me. Because my worries of people's opinions is the main reason why I'm not out trying to find a job and just doing shit I want to do.

    I'm taking a walk in the park, and a person passes by--immediately, I feel as if I "should" smile and wave at them, because that's the nice thing to do, right? And I'm a nice person, right? And I don't want them to think I'm mean, right?
    But that type of thinking is not right.
    Why do I have to prove who I am to someone when I already know me better than anyone?

    Okay, I think you're missing the important reasons behind being polite/nice to people. I agree that you cannot win everyone's approval, and living for approval is ridiculous. Sure, not everyone will like you in life and you should not fake a personality just to fit in. Blocking out negative thoughts and not being overly worried of how people see you is a good way to get past insecurities. I understand the conclusions you've come to, but improving your skills in interacting with others is not at odds with staying true to yourself.

    I too get frustrated at being misunderstood, and I can feel that it's partly the other person's problem for jumping to conclusions. However, as I get older, I recognize that I am only in control of MY behavior and I cannot control people's perceptions. If I want to make friends and get a job and function in the world, then I have to send the signals that people understand to be friendly and positive. They don't owe me the chance to get to know me more deeply, they don't owe me anything. They have every right to make an impression based off my body language or whatever. They can only work with what I give them! It's partly a communication issue, and it's unfair to ask people to read my mind and know that I am really nice....and why should I care if they think I am nice?

    This is why:
    Polite social behavior is also to make other people feel good and comfortable, not just gaining their approval. Think about how your behavior makes people feel. Do you really want them to feel bad and feel like you don't like them? Do you want them to feel as judged as you feel? Do you want them to feel you are rejecting them? Interestingly, like you, I would feel rejected by others when they wrote me off based on my shy demeanor, but I've learned they felt I was the one snubbing them. Step outside of Fi for a minute, and consider the value in making other people feel welcomed and approved. A smile goes a long way in making others feel comfortable. It's a small, but kind gesture.

    Bottom line: it's not all about you and how you feel. As INFPs, we have to come to terms with the fact that there are reasons for the social graces, however phony they seem to us.


    Hey, if you're willing to face the consequences after telling someone their mom is fat, then do whatever you want.
    And part of those consequences is hurting other people unnecessarily.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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