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View Poll Results: Do you think same-sex marriage should be legal?

Voters
135. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes and I'm an NF.

    48 35.56%
  • Yes and I'm an NT.

    51 37.78%
  • Yes and I'm an SP.

    10 7.41%
  • Yes and I'm an SJ.

    4 2.96%
  • No and I'm an NF.

    5 3.70%
  • No and I'm an NT.

    4 2.96%
  • No and I'm an SP.

    2 1.48%
  • No and I'm an SJ.

    7 5.19%
  • I don't know and I'm an NF.

    2 1.48%
  • I don't know and I'm an NT.

    1 0.74%
  • I don't know and I'm an SP.

    1 0.74%
  • I don't know and I'm an SJ.

    0 0%
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Results 231 to 240 of 258

  1. #231
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Bottom line: Gen Y's and younger (and most Gen X's) are part of the new framework and thus have no connection to the old; they are not going to cling to an old system that no longer reflects the reality they live in. The main defenders of the "old way" are people who existed in the prior frame, but the world and culture has moved on -- not in terms of values but in its very composition, which in turn drives new values -- and that's why this whole shift is inevitable.
    Insightful and also practical in its application - eventually the value shift will lead to legalization. This insight is also supported by empirical evidence. Most political polls show that people in the age group of 18-25 have much higher support for legalization than older groups.

    CNN poll: Generations disagree on same-sex marriage - CNN.com

    Thanks for putting the discussion here in perspective.

  2. #232
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    How does gay marriage undermine family?
    The reasoning goes something like this; the two-parent, mother and father family core sustains society by educating and socializing children, not only in practical matters but in terms of gender relations as well, which is ultimately the primary foundation of all sustainable societies. Such socializing is mostly unconscious, rather than deliberate, with the parents acting on the basis of their parents actions, and so on. This process, like all patterns of socialization, is presumed to be somewhat fragile, with unhealthy upbringings often leading to parental shortcomings, thereby contributing to personal and (if endemic) societal ills that may take generations to redress. Therefore, all else being equal, two-parent mother and father families are best for children and society and should be encouraged. Legal gay marriage will be promoted as intrinsically the same as heterosexual marriage, upsetting the normative support structure for this most vital of institutions as well as handicapping their children's ability to interact with the opposite sex as a parent.

    In all honesty, I don't completely disagree with the aforementioned line of reasoning, but I always keep certain things in mind that makes it, for me, insufficient grounds for effectively violating the spirit of personal liberty and equality under the law:

    1.) Even while making the effort to remove completely subjective considerations from the equation, there is still an inherently large degree of subjectivity and uncertainty with this arguement.

    2.) In reality, all else is NEVER equal, and other inequalities (which are not, practically can not, and morally should not be grounds for marriage illegality) are much more salient, so why deny gays the same opportunities to pursue happiness as other people? Especially when so many children need adoption.

    3.) Countries that have legalized gay marriage don't seem to be experiencing any substantial problems as a consequence.

  3. #233
    Lasting_Pain
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    I voted yes. But in reality I do not care.

  4. #234
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    To be honest I did not have the patience to read 24 pages on this topic, so forgive me if this point has already been raised. (I got to 7 pages, and that was enough).

    I think the question all boils down to what you think the purpose of the institution of marriage is for and what kind of...meaning...it has for our society.

    If you do not believe the institution of marriage has any real meaning outside of certain tax privileges and rights, you probably would say yes or I don't know/care.

    If you believe the institution of marriage has some kind of greater meaning, even when administered by the state, you're more inclined to see this as a black/white issue of HELL YES, DAMN IT GAYS ARE PEOPLE TOO!!! or HELL NO WE NEED TO SEND A MESSAGE TO SOCIETY AND PRESERVE OUR TRADITIONS/FAMILIES!
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  5. #235
    morose bourgeoisie
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    with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, I fail to see what is so sanctified about the institution.

  6. #236
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, I fail to see what is so sanctified about the institution.
    Heh, I didn't say it was...just making an observation, which may or may not be accurate.
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  7. #237
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Do you have a solid, supportive family? For a lot of people, if you do have that kind of family, it's really all you have. For myself, I know they're the only ones that REALLY have my back no matter what. That's something to cherish.
    Actually, I don't. To me, "family" is the arbitrary excuse people use to demand that I write them cards at specific times during the year, value their opinion, and help them out when they need it, while offering nothing in return.

    In other words, they're basically strangers, but they use some arbitrary connection to claim I should value their feelings and welfare. Ironically, I care more about most strangers than my family, because they try to relate to me as an individual and engage in give and take. They usually don't show up randomly with a bunch of arbitrary demands and expectations, and then walk off and forget about me soon afterwards.

    Despite what everyone says about the beauty and value of family, I've never had any trouble dismissing those leeches the same way I would anyone treated me that way, and it annoys me when people tell me I'm wrong to do so. I pretty much despise people who say family is meaningful, and generally dismiss them out of hand. I think society would be better without the whole idea of family permeating things. I know that few entertain or express such ideas, though, because most people are like dogs... hopelessly loyal even when mistreated. I'm more like a cat.

  8. #238
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, I fail to see what is so sanctified about the institution.
    This is a stubborn little myth.

    Divorce Rate: It's Not as High as You Think

    How many American marriages end in divorce? One in two, if you believe the
    statistic endlessly repeated in news media reports, academic papers and
    campaign speeches.

    The figure is based on a simple - and flawed - calculation: the annual
    marriage rate per 1,000 people compared with the annual divorce rate. In
    2003, for example, the most recent year for which data is available, there
    were 7.5 marriages per 1,000 people and 3.8 divorces, according to the
    National Center for Health Statistics.

    But researchers say that this is misleading because the people who are
    divorcing in any given year are not the same as those who are marrying, and
    that the statistic is virtually useless in understanding divorce rates. In
    fact, they say, studies find that the divorce rate in the United States has
    never reached one in every two marriages, and new research suggests that,
    with rates now declining, it probably never will.

    The method preferred by social scientists in determining the divorce rate is
    to calculate how many people who have ever married subsequently divorced.
    Counted that way, the rate has never exceeded about 41 percent, researchers
    say. Although sharply rising rates in the 1970's led some to project that
    the number would keep increasing, the rate has instead begun to inch
    downward.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #239
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Actually, I don't. To me, "family" is the arbitrary excuse people use to demand that I write them cards at specific times during the year, value their opinion, and help them out when they need it, while offering nothing in return.

    In other words, they're basically strangers, but they use some arbitrary connection to claim I should value their feelings and welfare. Ironically, I care more about most strangers than my family, because they try to relate to me as an individual and engage in give and take. They usually don't show up randomly with a bunch of arbitrary demands and expectations, and then walk off and forget about me soon afterwards.

    Despite what everyone says about the beauty and value of family, I've never had any trouble dismissing those leeches the same way I would anyone treated me that way, and it annoys me when people tell me I'm wrong to do so. I pretty much despise people who say family is meaningful, and generally dismiss them out of hand. I think society would be better without the whole idea of family permeating things. I know that few entertain or express such ideas, though, because most people are like dogs... hopelessly loyal even when mistreated. I'm more like a cat.
    ^ What she said...

    That being said I think many, though not all, children require the loving attention of two parents comprising the masculine and the feminine... We see this in the case of single-parent homes or in homes where a lack of strong, supportive parental influences can damage youth... I think that's true of any family structure though. The question is whether or not homosexual partnerships are doomed from the start due to the lack of duality (masculine and feminine), although one could argue that this duality also exists in these kinds of relationships.

    Couple that with the complexity that the state allowing gay marriage sanctions the practice of homosexuality, which doesn't set well with some individuals for various reasons, and you have a whole other set of factors.

    *shrugs* I don't know...
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  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I know lots of gay couples with kids. Some adopt, some find other ways (artificial insemination, surrogacy, or just good old-fashioned sex with the opposite sex). Most of the settled gay couples I know either have children or want to have them someday.
    One such couple is a lovely pair of men that I share legal custody of my youngest son with (our arrangement is similar to that of divorced couples, I have a legal right to the child but they are the primary guardians). I chose them specifically because they were good people and I knew my child would have solid role models.

    We've got masculine, feminine, and something in between covered when it comes to role models (don't ask which is which though).

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