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  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Biological differences between individuals within a group are greater than biological differences between groups.

    Biological differences between groups or individuals have nothing to do with intelligence.
    IQ is racist garbage.

    Genetic diversity inside Africa is greater that genetic diversity outside Africa.

  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It's called culturally biased testing.

    Make a test based on the language norms of one culture and guess what? The people from that culture tend to do better on the test. Imagine that.

    It is extrememly difficult to create completely neutral measurement systems. These types of topics are too broad, diffuse, and yet draw sweeping conclusions. Intelligence itself is a somewhat fluid concept, add to that the inherent problems with measuring it - to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Someone please pass the salt. K, thanks.
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It's called culturally biased testing. Make a test based on the language norms of one culture and guess what? The people from that culture tend to do better on the test. Imagine that. (etc)
    Yup.

    I do commend Sona for placing this thread in the appropriate subforum, however. That was a remarkably appropriate use of that Tickle.com 142 IQ.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It's called culturally biased testing.

    Make a test based on the language norms of one culture and guess what? The people from that culture tend to do better on the test. Imagine that.
    So why do East Asians score best?

    I think we need to get past the point of talking down on IQ tests and just analyze the results. Without doubt they measure that blacks have lower average IQs than Europeans or Asians. This quote from the online article sums it up: “Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause.”

    I used to believe it was basically all down to differences in environment, but it seems like I might have underestimated the part of genetics. When the average IQ in sub-Saharan Africa is just 70, the reason is obviously mostly differences in environment. But how much of the gap of 30 IQ points is due to environment and how much is due to genetics? I would guess 20-25 points are due to environment. The IQ gap between black and white people in the US is about 15 points, and based on this new data I would guess about 50 % of that is due to differences in genetics, half due to environment. I think especially the brain size argument was strong: “Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.”

    That being said, there is no reason to judge because of this knowledge. An average is just that, an average. There are plenty of talented people of all skin colours. You just cannot judge people based on this kind of knowledge, you have to be a complete fool to do so. Let’s say you know a person is an African American. All you can say about his IQ is that there is a such and such a probability for it being so and so high, but you don’t know anything for certain.

  5. #15
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    I am confident that there will be a difference in the average intelligence of racial groups. In fact, it would be quite miraculous if every racial group averaged precisely the same.

    Imagine racial groups like large extended families, because genetically that's basically what they are, then imagine someone making the claim that every family in the US would have exactly the same level of intelligence, all else being equal.

    It would be quite a remarkable discovery, if there was no difference of intelligence attributed to genetic variance, especially since the evolution of intelligence presupposes that such variance exists. (note that a chimpanzee genome makes a notably stupider organism that a human genome.)

    The same thought experiment dispels the idea that such variance between racial groups somehow condones racist policy-making. If we are to discriminate based on race, then why not on even more local factors, such as the average intelligence of the a family?

    (In fact, our ethical standards would not change even if it was true that some racial groups were always less intelligent than another. In only extreme cases, where intellgence is so low that person cannot function as an orindary member of society are rights limited.)
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #16
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Bwahahah.... Wikipedia isn't reliable, but tickle tests are?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I am confident that there will be a difference in the average intelligence of racial groups. In fact, it would be quite miraculous if every racial group averaged precisely the same...

    It would be quite a remarkable discovery, if there was no difference of intelligence attributed to genetic variance, especially since the evolution of intelligence presupposes that such variance exists. (note that a chimpanzee genome makes a notably stupider organism that a human genome.)
    I agree with you, and even the other things that are mentioned (variances in physical ability and such) could easily have genetic basis.

    I think contextually it's evident that this topic was not being brought up for a leveled discussion but more in order to cause a stir / to be controversial. Which seems to be a poor context to discuss something of this nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Bwahahah.... Wikipedia isn't reliable, but tickle tests are?
    Well, of course: Tickle is aimed at the adolescent female population, and that's a demographic that Sona respects quite highly, intellectually wise.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Performing well on that Tickle test doesn't mean anything. The answers for that test are easily found with a google search.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I agree with you, and even the other things that are mentioned (variances in physical ability and such) could easily have genetic basis.
    Easily? How about definitely. Try having physical ability, intelligence and such without a "genetic basis." I think you will find that difficult, unless you have an alternative to genes, that is.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Biological differences between individuals within a group are greater than biological differences between groups.

    Biological differences between groups or individuals have nothing to do with intelligence.
    IQ is racist garbage.

    Genetic diversity inside Africa is greater that genetic diversity outside Africa.
    Hmm.. I don't really want to start some sort of race arguement, as there's plenty of dummies in all races.

    I did laugh though when I had a look at the AOL IQ test... Us UK males have an average IQ of 113 which is higher than the Germans and Europeans which are all higher than America's (At 102).

    nb: Genetic diversity has nothing to do with intellect, environmental fit in a heavily contested region (such as Europe) may well. Survival of the fittest, or most intelligent?

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