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  1. #161
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I wouldn't agree. I don't think that what Sona is doing is right, but I don't see a big difference. Both are exploiting a community group based upon shared values when you don't share the beliefs. He does share the same cultural values, it's just that they favor him.
    How on earth can you exploit someone by contributing to them and playing by the established rules that have been laid down for the group? That seems silly to me. If you play by the rules (i.e., do not disrupt the organization) as a kindness, and you contribute to others again as a kindness, how on earth can you consider it to be exploitation?

    The only difference is belief... and belief is not black/white, it's a continuum. At what point (aside from their own admission) can you lump someone in a non-belief category versus the belief category? Even the believers don't believe it all; and the unbelievers often still believe some of it, partially. Which is why they're still there.

    He's clearly "type a" with some stability problems, but I don't see how that changes the underlying morality of what is being done. He'd be type a if he believed or not; he'd treat his wife the same way (... from what I understand, possibly worse) if he believed. He is still acting within cultural norms without the religious beliefs - he simply doesn't believe. Why does belief change the morality of that?
    Now, admittedly, you are losing me.

    To return to the beginning, I suggested that it was a good thing to contribute positively to others even if you don't necessarily believe everything that is being sold, and it's a bad thing to take purposefully take advantage of others (like a scavenger) even if you don't believe. Perhaps I worded myself poorly earlier.

    We all use our society - it's not like men ask for wage parity with women for example, or race, or anything else. We do use the advantages we are given without remorse.
    You should qualify that comment. It's far too strong.

    And that's what he's doing - that's what nearly all men in his religion do. The only question is if belief would "moralise" his actions... that is if the religion makes that moral while the cultural following makes it immoral.
    So you're saying Islam promotes as "moral behavior" the exploitation of others within the system in regards to behaving one way outwardly to gain face and then behaving however one wants when one is alone? That's part of the actual tenets of the faith?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #162
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    How on earth can you exploit someone by contributing to them and playing by the established rules that have been laid down for the group? That seems silly to me. If you play by the rules (i.e., do not disrupt the organization) as a kindness, and you contribute to others again as a kindness, how on earth can you consider it to be exploitation?
    Ah, this is the problem. Let's remove the good/bad from the equation.

    A person joins a group and then follows their cultural norm, despite not believing in the source of that culture. Is that right or wrong?

    Now, you say it's ok if they join and do "good acts", while wrong if he joins and "exploits". I agree that good acts are "good" while exploitation is "bad", however, I believe that the belief or lack of belief does not change the morality of the acts.

    What I do agree with is that he is doing something wrong whether or not he believes. So the issue of his belief is only based upon how right/wrong it is to join a group under false pretenses. It doesn't make that act any better depending on his acts (unless they are contrary to the group, anyway).

    Does that make sense?

    Perhaps to clarify - do you think that if he believed in the full Islamic religion, his actions would change...? That him going back to praying and so forth would change the level of exploitation he would do? (Note that a large segment of the Islamic population would say "no" by example... so that's what I'm basing it upon. Maybe I am incorrect on this.)

  3. #163
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    A person joins a group and then follows their cultural norm, despite not believing in the source of that culture. Is that right or wrong?
    I consider that a courtesy. It's a positive act if you're doing it to put others at ease. However, I would also consider it to be a positive act to not follow the norm and embrace the negative ramifications of that, if your integrity does not allow you to flex that way.

    What I consider negative is to embrace the norm overtly while really not embracing it at all, in order to capitalize off your deceit. It shows a lack of integrity.

    Now, you say it's ok if they join and do "good acts", while wrong if he joins and "exploits". I agree that good acts are "good" while exploitation is "bad", however, I believe that the belief or lack of belief does not change the morality of the acts.
    But the believer is not suffering a lack of integrity. They are conforming to the belief they claim to value and acting in good faith. The unbeliever like Sona is suffering a lack of integrity by doing lip service to a belief that he is unwilling to follow and instead just exploits.

    This is somewhat what Sahara was saying. She can respect someone acting out of integrity to their beliefs, even if she dislikes their beliefs -- or at least, it does not seem as horrid as someone who is a complete bottom feeder.

    Perhaps to clarify - do you think that if he believed in the full Islamic religion, his actions would change...? That him going back to praying and so forth would change the level of exploitation he would do?
    If he was truly praying and following the tenets of his faith? (And I still have not heard an answer about whether "exploitation of other believers, MALE and female" is part of the traditional Muslim faith.) I'm hoping if he was a believer, then that would change his behavior. So yes, his exploitation should decrease if it's not part of the tenets of his faith.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post

    I liken it to premeditated murder or manslaughter, not in the exact same way, but just in their degrees between each other. Cold and calculated vs foolish/anger.

    Am I making sense as this is one of the those things I can't convey all that well in words?
    Yes I do know what you're trying to say. I.e. Am using religion in a calculated way to get kick-backs for myself.

    Well the way I see it, is. Why should a believing man who believes in Allah get all this pleasure from his wife. His going to use the same tools as me to take advantage of his wife, and shes not going to complain as she will be doing her duty. Am just there to get the pleasure.

    Its like this... If I was a drug dealer - and I could sell drugs even though knowing the damage it creates. As opposed to a drug dealer who doesn't have a clue. I'd still sell the drugs... You know why... If they don't buy the stuff from me they will buy it from someone else.

    Its my right for me wife to act how I want her to or how I want to use her. She's my wife. I don't go up to other men and tell them they should treat their wives in a set way, I don't have the authority. If I can use a piece of scripture to get laid when I want then sure as hell I will use it. Whats so wrong about that?

  5. #165
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    For the record, I do actually pray and follow all the obligatory tenets of my faith.

    I only fornicate and drink which are both forbidden. However I am going to stop drinking, and I'll not be committing fornication once am married. Why go out for a nasty burger when you have a stake out home.

  6. #166
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If he was truly praying and following the tenets of his faith? (And I still have not heard an answer about whether "exploitation of other believers, MALE and female" is part of the traditional Muslim faith.) I'm hoping if he was a believer, then that would change his behavior. So yes, his exploitation should decrease if it's not part of the tenets of his faith.
    This answer can't be given - the interpretation of the faith is done at the cultural level. In short, the is following the "tenets" of this faith if he joins a group that is of the faith and believes in that interpretation. Just as it would be "Christian" if someone joined a "Christian faith" that was OT derived and thought their women shouldn't be allowed to... say... wear pants (having been part of the sub-culture, it's easy for me to use as an example!).

    Perhaps its my overly atheist view, but I don't see a difference between belief and non-belief in terms of judging actions. We obviously differ on that point. I would respect "integrity" as well, although the NT version of being true to self seems a bit off in a world where religion is more about the integrity of the group. However, I do see it as a seperate moral issue. I don't believe integrity has any influence on the actual morality of the acts that one undertakes.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Yes I do know what you're trying to say. I.e. Am using religion in a calculated way to get kick-backs for myself.

    Well the way I see it, is. Why should a believing man who believes in Allah get all this pleasure from his wife. His going to use the same tools as me to take advantage of his wife, and shes not going to complain as she will be doing her duty. Am just there to get the pleasure.

    Its like this... If I was a drug dealer - and I could sell drugs even though knowing the damage it creates. As opposed to a drug dealer who doesn't have a clue. I'd still sell the drugs... You know why... If they don't buy the stuff from me they will buy it from someone else.

    Its my right for me wife to act how I want her to or how I want to use her. She's my wife. I don't go up to other men and tell them they should treat their wives in a set way, I don't have the authority. If I can use a piece of scripture to get laid when I want then sure as hell I will use it. Whats so wrong about that?
    So you're willing to accept the lowest common denominator in life. You're always going to be miserable if you choose this path. You know that, right? No matter how much control you have, it will never be enough. You'll always have that doubt in your mind as to whether your wife is with you because she has to be or she wants to be. I'm sure you'll say it doesn't matter to you, but I don't believe it for a second.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you're willing to accept the lowest common denominator in life. You're always going to be miserable if you choose this path. You know that, right? No matter how much control you have, it will never be enough. You'll always have that doubt in your mind as to whether your wife is with you because she has to be or she wants to be. I'm sure you'll say it doesn't matter to you, but I don't believe it for a second.
    Actually it doesn't matter to me. If a woman pretended to love me. I wouldn't mind it. I don't care. What is love? its not like you can touch it or eat it.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Actually it doesn't matter to me. If a woman pretended to love me. I wouldn't mind it. I don't care. What is love? its not like you can touch it or eat it.
    It matters to everyone. You're just supressing those feelings. It doesn't have to necessarily be about love, either. It could be respect or admiration. When someone is with you because they're being controlled, there is no love or respect.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #170
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It matters to everyone. You're just supressing those feelings. It doesn't have to necessarily be about love, either. It could be respect or admiration. When someone is with you because they're being controlled, there is no love or respect.
    I would point out there are a lot of cultures that are built upon duty... Japan recently had a study about how many marriages are "sexless" and so forth - a relationship more like brother and sister... So there is a wide variety of issues.

    Regardless, I do agree with you. When in the relationship, Sona will want more than just power. The likely outcome is a constant attempt to force love, which won't emerge, which will cause... more force!

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