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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    :yim_rolling_on_the_: You make me laugh, Sona. Really, you do.



    Substitute "flying unicorns" for "a god". Can you feel it? Can you feel the hypocrisy pulsating through your body yet?
    Its like I talk to brick walls here. I don't believe a god actually exists. Well not literally anyway. However, the Islamic religion has a real application - Its fundamental tenets and ideology I find appealing. Just like someone would find Marxism or democracy appealing.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Its like I talk to brick walls here. I don't believe a god actually exists. Well not literally anyway. However, the Islamic religion has a real application - Its fundamental tenets and ideology I find appealing. Just like someone would find Marxism or democracy appealing.
    That's simply not logical. The basis for Islam is submission to God. Without God, the entire ideology unravels. Not that it was successful, even with belief in God.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Its like I talk to brick walls here. I don't believe a god actually exists. Well not literally anyway. However, the Islamic religion has a real application - Its fundamental tenets and ideology I find appealing. Just like someone would find Marxism or democracy appealing.
    Yes, I understand that much. (Just like people here can accept Christianity because of its decent general social values, while not necessarily accepting the claims of divinity or exclusivity.)

    The difficulty is that the way of life you are describing sounds so imbalanced in its treatment of gender that it's laughable in our system. It sounds like things the western world started to discard 80 years ago and are still working to rid ourselves of, because we see it as socially immoral and wrong.

    (But I always want to understand the frame of reference from the inside, as you would see it, which is why I am asking so many questions...)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's simply not logical. The basis for Islam is submission to God. Without God, the entire ideology unravels. Not that it was successful, even with belief in God.
    Maybe I'm tipsy and not making sense. In me mind its all there, its hard to explain, but try to picture books on a bookshelf - all in order - so when I think each part of things is broken down into different books. And each theory within a book I edit it and like save it. So its right, i.e consistent, logical and coherent, sometimes what happens I lose text or parts of books I save. So then I have to rearrange everything. Its easier to do in my mind. But harder to explain it to others. Because it takes me time, its more like in objects like the parts of texts are like in objects.

    But anyway what you say is not true. I'm more of an atheist however I use religion for forcing structure and order on others. I know how someones going to act when he is a Muslim, I know the rules he/she has to follow. For me I can break the rules when no one is watching (i.e. other Muslims) as I don't believe in a god or hell.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, I understand that much. (Just like people here can accept Christianity because of its decent general social values, while not necessarily accepting the claims of divinity or exclusivity.)

    The difficulty is that the way of life you are describing sounds so imbalanced in its treatment of gender that it's laughable in our system. It sounds like things the western world started to discard 80 years ago and are still working to rid ourselves of, because we see it as socially immoral and wrong.

    (But I always want to understand the frame of reference from the inside, as you would see it, which is why I am asking so many questions...)
    I know why I like Islam. It works in my favor, I can use its rules without following them myself. So I can use them on my wife so I know what to expect. Not that I want to abuse her and make her feel like shit. But its so have control. Its about being in control.

  6. #146
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Maybe I'm tipsy and not making sense. In me mind its all there, its hard to explain, but try to picture books on a bookshelf - all in order - so when I think each part of things is broken down into different books. And each theory within a book I edit it and like save it. So its right, i.e consistent, logical and coherent, sometimes what happens I lose text or parts of books I save. So then I have to rearrange everything. Its easier to do in my mind. But harder to explain it to others. Because it takes me time, its more like in objects like the parts of texts are like in objects.

    But anyway what you say is not true. I'm more of an atheist however I use religion for forcing structure and order on others. I know how someones going to act when he is a Muslim, I know the rules he/she has to follow. For me I can break the rules when no one is watching (i.e. other Muslims) as I don't believe in a god or hell.
    Then you're a cultural Muslim, but not a religious Muslim. I didn't know that about you. I assumed religious.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    I know why I like Islam. It works in my favor, I can use its rules without following them myself. So I can use them on my wife so I know what to expect. Not that I want to abuse her and make her feel like shit. But its so have control. Its about being in control.
    I can accept someone buying into Islam if they see its tenets as personally worthwhile, but don't you see it as a lack of personal integrity to abuse any sort of system (whether Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or whatever) to your own advantage, meanwhile preying upon the integrity of others who are trying to be faithful?

    That sort of duplicitous behavior is entirely selfish and self-centered by anyone's standards. Don't you have any desire to give to anyone else or actually serve a higher standard than your own self-interest?

    Control is all about self-satisfaction and survival, but I think that life can be about a great deal more than that... and you don't seem very happy. You will never have true control over others, and when you try, you no longer have the capacity to meet another person intimately.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #148
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can accept someone buying into Islam if they see its tenets as personally worthwhile, but don't you see it as a lack of personal integrity to abuse any sort of system (whether Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or whatever) to your own advantage, meanwhile preying upon the integrity of others who are trying to be faithful?
    Not to defend Sona, but this is plenty common in all religions. Christians that stay in the church for community, etc. We all do it to some degree - none of us act in perfect accordance with our own morality.

    The other stuff I agree with. I just wish no one would be suffering due to this form of belief. Reality, however, says that he isn't an exception.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post

    The other stuff I agree with. I just wish no one would be suffering due to this form of belief. Reality, however, says that he isn't an exception.

    No, he isn't.

    Sona what I find most baffling is your path since we first met, you started out believing in god, a higher being, creation etc, and through debate you had to rearrange those books in your head. Becoming lost, instead of grasping for your mental freedom, your huge fear of social isolation within your community should you leave Islam froze you in fear. Through debate you came to really recognise (and admit it too) that Islam treats gender unfairly, and treats other faiths unfairly too. Instead of fighting against injustice, as you profess to do, you grasp a way in which to make the system work best for you and f*ck anybody else who is suffering along the way.

    It's thanks to people like you, and the full on believers, that such injustices are still perpetrated in the name of religion or any ideology come to think of it, it's about personal selfish desires of individuals, as to why the collective (humanity) is still so full of suffering.

    You talk about helping the underdog, but it's all talk.

    Your desire for control is abhorrant to me, you have no control over yourself, so seek to control others in order to make you feel good, and you will happily use a system that you know is disgusting.

    You say talking here is like hitting your head against a brick wall , then all the time I have spent talking to you was liking hitting my head against the great wall of China.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    No, he isn't.

    Sona what I find most baffling is your path since we first met, you started out believing in god, a higher being, creation etc, and through debate you had to rearrange those books in your head.
    The good old days. I was kinda naive thinking now one can get me to not believe in a god.

    Becoming lost, instead of grasping for your mental freedom, your huge fear of social isolation within your community should you leave Islam froze you in fear.
    There are few issues, one it feels like being a traitor and two I lose order. I would be isolated becouse I'd be drinking and messing around while everyone else in my society will move on and change. I don't want to be going backwards - I know the only time I don't have fear and depression is when am sitting the mosque, and am not worried about my family being worried about me. The more I drink the more depressed I get. The more I think my life's doomed and I don't feel like doing anything.

    Through debate you came to really recognise (and admit it too) that Islam treats gender unfairly, and treats other faiths unfairly too. Instead of fighting against injustice, as you profess to do, you grasp a way in which to make the system work best for you and f*ck anybody else who is suffering along the way.
    The problem is, at the moment its the Muslims who are suffering. My family are Muslims, I identify with the religion and culture. I don't want to abandon it. I just can't do that. I'm fucking everyone else, becouse I've lost faith in people. I have trust issues, theres very few people I can trust.

    It's thanks to people like you, and the full on believers, that such injustices are still perpetrated in the name of religion or any ideology come to think of it, it's about personal selfish desires of individuals, as to why the collective (humanity) is still so full of suffering.
    You eventually realize, you can't save everybody. The older am getting the more selfish and irreligious I am getting. Sometimes I just want to die. Everything we stand for is really inconsequential if you think about it.

    You talk about helping the underdog, but it's all talk.
    On a one and one situation I would. I can't save everyone or help everyone.

    Your desire for control is abhorrant to me, you have no control over yourself, so seek to control others in order to make you feel good, and you will happily use a system that you know is disgusting.
    Why do you think I want to control people? not to abuse them. I want to control them so I don't get hurt.

    You say talking here is like hitting your head against a brick wall , then all the time I have spent talking to you was liking hitting my head against the great wall of China.
    Am feed up of life. And being in the same situation drinking walking up feeling like shit. I just want to feel normal and not scared am scared of something, I don't even know what.

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