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  1. #121
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Your arguments are strange to me. How can you have a perspective of what someone is going to say? you can't say every Muslim woman will feel like this. Its a fallacy of generalizations. My argument is if Islam is oppressive for women, 1.) why aren't Muslim women leaving Islam on mass 2.) why is it that the majority of the people converting to Islam are women. You relate something from your perspective and try to project that as a logical argument. Its more so based on emotions and feels, then logic. Hence why I have a hard time sympathizing with you.
    I find that very hypocrtical of you, considering it was you who used the generalization fallacy first by saying that all muslim find the hijab liberating.

    If you read my response carefully you will see that not once did I pin it down to ALL, simply I set a level that I figured fit best from all the things I have read, and all the ones I have spoken to aswell.

    Where is the emotion in asking you why many many muslim women, especially those in westernised countries, choose not to wear the hijab, when you say it is so liberating?

    In Iran considering all the tight laws and religious police that abound, why is that still women find a way to work around their clothing, so that the oh so "liberating" hijab, get's shorter, or lighter?

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Crackdown in Iran over dress codes
    Forget the fact that they are cracking down YET AGAIN, one must ask why women keep trying loosen the restraints on them if it is indeed as liberating as you put it?


    Well theres 100s of women who would argue against it.

    See: "Why do Muslim women wear the hijab?"
    Yet a visit to say Morocco or Egypt, would show more women ditching traditional islamic gear, in favour of the more "opressive" western gear I assume.


    I don't know what kind of women you're talking to. Why don't you post on an Islamic forum in a women's only section and ask the same questions. I highly doubt you would get the same respection as you claim. Particularly when you tell them you're an ex Muslim.
    Yes, I am out of the clique now, so the answers would be highly dishonest.


    So you have the prospective of the majority of the women who convert to Islam?
    Do you Sona?

    If you read so many of these womens conversions stories, you would realise it was the majority too.

    Girl meets boy, boy is muslim, girl falls in love, muslim boy makes his "Islam or the road" speech, and bad-a-bing, history is made.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  2. #122
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    We can't say what ever single person would do. Some women like Islam and believe it gives them freedom and others believe it doesn't. And my argument is freedom is subjective. As my arguments conclusion follows logically from my arguments premises. So we can't really argue about what is freedom, as different people precive freedom differently. For exmple, take the Muslim convert to Islam, who lived a western life style and never covered. And then all of a sudden after learning about Islam converted to Islam and started wearing the hijab. A person would never knowing take away their own freedom.
    You might want to go and read A Theory of Justice for some views about starting from an original position. Unfortunately you seem incapable of opening your mind to hypothetical situations, which is a bit of an obstacle to engaging in logical conversation (or reading the book) - in lieu of such a conversation, take my word for it: no sane individual caught behind the veil of ignorance would accept entering into a society based on the view of women you spout here. Yourself included (although I occasionally question your sanity)
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, the concept of freedom is a whole 'nuther debate, but what I'm saying is this:


    just isn't accurate. Only someone completely devoid of imagination would be unable to comprehend the difference between the life men and women outside the culture live unless they are completely isolated from it. I don't think even you are that devoid of imagination.
    Well I rely on personal experiences. I have a friend who tells me sniffing coke is the best thing ever. However, even though I would sell the substance I would not dabble init myself. Same applies to Islam and if I was a Muslim woman, I'd never be able to experience the freedom a man has. I mean men have more freedom then, women. You're a woman does that make you want to get a sex change and act like a man? of course it doesn't. You can't change your gender so your content with being a woman. I don't know how its like to have my own tits and play with them, you on the other hand do (although am not suggesting you play with your tits). Indeed I can imagine how it feels, but I don't wish I was a woman, similarly you can imagine how it would be like to have a penis, yet you don't wish you were a man you're content being a woman. Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean you literally want to experience it.

  4. #124
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Hard hypothetical question normally I don't like answering hypothetical questions I see them as traps. Anyway... I can tell you one thing. If I was a Muslim women, then I would have no comprehension of how its like to be a Muslim man, and the freedom that comes with it. So therefore if I haven't experienced the joys of it. Then I'd be content with my Muslim female role.
    That is not what I asked (and tried to word it to avoid your interpretation).

    I asked what you would think after having BEEN a male Muslim for so long. So you could make a proper comparison. Do you think the experiences are inherently balanced, equal, fair...?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I find that very hypocrtical of you, considering it was you who used the generalization fallacy first by saying that all muslim find the hijab liberating.
    I actually didn't say all women. You're taken out of context what I actually said, from what I can recall I said. Majority of the Muslim women I've talked to find the niqaab liberating.

    If you read my response carefully you will see that not once did I pin it down to ALL, simply I set a level that I figured fit best from all the things I have read, and all the ones I have spoken to aswell.
    fair enough.

    Where is the emotion in asking you why many many muslim women, especially those in westernised countries, choose not to wear the hijab, when you say it is so liberating?
    Because its its an argument based on emotion appeals. You associate many Muslim women don't wear niqqab in the west therefore the niqqab must be bad an none liberating. You're associating negative emotions with your argument. There could be many reasons why some westernized Muslim choose not to wear the niqqab, maybe its getting in the way of their work, maybe they are not practicing Muslim, or maybe (like in France) their is a ban on religious attire.

    In Iran considering all the tight laws and religious police that abound, why is that still women find a way to work around their clothing, so that the oh so "liberating" hijab, get's shorter, or lighter?
    Maybe they want to attract partners maybe its a teenage rebellious thing?

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Crackdown in Iran over dress codes
    Forget the fact that they are cracking down YET AGAIN, one must ask why women keep trying loosen the restraints on them if it is indeed as liberating as you put it?
    Do you know, what the female population of Iran is? this article is generalizing.


    Yet a visit to say Morocco or Egypt, would show more women ditching traditional islamic gear, in favour of the more "opressive" western gear I assume.
    Incorrect conclusion. Fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

    Yes, I am out of the clique now, so the answers would be highly dishonest.
    Perhaps.


    Do you Sona?

    If you read so many of these womens conversions stories, you would realise it was the majority too.

    Girl meets boy, boy is muslim, girl falls in love, muslim boy makes his "Islam or the road" speech, and bad-a-bing, history is made.
    This is utter bullshit. Am Sorry but you can't base whole argument oh they are converting to Islam out of love for some man. Lol I personally know a white Muslim convert to Islam who lives alone with her kids and she hasn't converted to Islam for a guy. And you've actually even talked to this person.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is not what I asked (and tried to word it to avoid your interpretation).

    I asked what you would think after having BEEN a male Muslim for so long. So you could make a proper comparison. Do you think the experiences are inherently balanced, equal, fair...?
    I wouldn't say they are equal. But they are fair. There are some obligations in the man too. And I think less obligations on women, women have the easier obligations. While the men have harder obligations. They are the bread earners.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    I actually didn't say all women. You're taken out of context what I actually said, from what I can recall I said. Majority of the Muslim women I've talked to find the niqaab liberating.
    This is also what you said:
    Islam is not designed to oppress women, ask any devout Muslim woman and she will tell you she feels liberated in her niqaab as she is not just seen as a sexual object by society
    Hypocritical.


    Because its its an argument based on emotion appeals. You associate many Muslim women don't wear niqqab in the west therefore the niqqab must be bad an none liberating. You're associating negative emotions with your argument. There could be many reasons why some westernized Muslim choose not to wear the niqqab, maybe its getting in the way of their work, maybe they are not practicing Muslim, or maybe (like in France) their is a ban on religious attire.
    Where was the emotion? seriously I am failing to see (aside from your usual method of attacking my type rather than my arguement) where emotion came into it?

    How does asking you why women are ditching islamic gear if it is meant to make them feel liberated (which a simple look around YOU can confirm within your own westernised pakistani/islamic culture in england), emotional in anyway?

    Maybe they want to attract partners maybe its a teenage rebellious thing?
    It is because islamic gear is opressive, you yourself have told me often that you are glad not to be a woman in islam, that it's only because you were a man that you were happy to stay in islam, the hijab was one of your reasons, why is that so?

    [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6596933.stm"]

    Do you know, what the female population of Iran is? this article is generalizing.
    Is that the best you can do?

    Incorrect conclusion. Fallacy of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
    The Fallacy of calling "fallacy" all the time.


    This is utter bullshit. Am Sorry but you can't base whole argument oh they are converting to Islam out of love for some man. Lol I personally know a white Muslim convert to Islam who lives alone with her kids and she hasn't converted to Islam for a guy. And you've actually even talked to this person.
    And concluded inside that it was just yet another one of your personas Sona, another fake you.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  8. #128
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    I wouldn't say they are equal. But they are fair. There are some obligations in the man too. And I think less obligations on women, women have the easier obligations. While the men have harder obligations. They are the bread earners.
    What makes them fair? I'm not sure of your basis of comparison here.

    (For example, women might not make the money; but the hell they seemingly go through to make a husband happy and maintain a house sounds like even less fun than getting to go to work all day.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    You might want to go and read A Theory of Justice for some views about starting from an original position. Unfortunately you seem incapable of opening your mind to hypothetical situations, which is a bit of an obstacle to engaging in logical conversation (or reading the book) - in lieu of such a conversation, take my word for it: no sane individual caught behind the veil of ignorance would accept entering into a society based on the view of women you spout here. Yourself included (although I occasionally question your sanity)
    I already had a debate on this with another guy on another forum. If I can find the post I will post it. It was on hypothetical arguments and why I try to avoid then. But currently, the damn forum is not working. However I will post as soon as it works.

    OK found part of it out of the Google cache:
    I agree with you somewhat, the Greeks talked lots of crap. Like some of the mathematical concepts, it

  10. #130
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I'm so tempted to get into this....must...resist...

    Sona, if your brother won't beat his wife, maybe you should show him how a REAL man acts. That is, if you have the balls to back up your words. I think you're full of shit and won't do a damn thing.

    Your sister-in-law isn't trying to sleep with you. That's called a fantasy. She's the one who won't sleep with you.

    The reason women rebel against control isn't because they're bad or wrong, it's because your ideology sucks ass, completely and absolutely.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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