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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    lol

    Honestly, I think you enjoy playing the role of the lone warrior fighting against all odds. The strife fuels you, rather than frightens you. It gives you something to react against or stand up for, and thus helps you feel strong.
    Oddly enough I get energized out of arguing and debating. So I very much enjoy it.

    Just curious -- What if you were a Muslim woman? What if you were the person you are right this moment, but through some bizarre metaphysical incident you were suddenly perceived as female by everyone else around you and expected to adhere to all the rules and roles that you believe Muslim women should follow? Would you still honestly feel good about it? Would you hate it? Would you lay down and die and give in and follow the rules? Would you rebel? Would you flee? Is it a role you'd want to play?
    Hard hypothetical question normally I don't like answering hypothetical questions I see them as traps. Anyway... I can tell you one thing. If I was a Muslim women, then I would have no comprehension of how its like to be a Muslim man, and the freedom that comes with it. So therefore if I haven't experienced the joys of it. Then I'd be content with my Muslim female role. Although if things became really bad for me and really crap, I would properly slowly put doubt into my husbands mind about his beliefs, and make him realize religion is fake. There's no mythological being in the sky waiting to punish you for precised transgressions against him. I'd try me best to live with it until it was unbearable. I'd probably commit suicide, if it became too hard for me.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    So the woman is subservient to the husband, has to play a prescribed role, and can be beaten should she disobey? I'm curious as to how this represents freedom. Freedom to do exactly as you're told (by custom, religion and your husband), lest you be beaten or killed? That doesn't look like freedom to me. How do you define freedom (and by that I don't mean specifically for women, I mean how do you define freedom period)?

    But I suppose muslim men are also constrained by custom, religion and their male relatives to do what they are told too, it's just that they are given a much longer leash.
    freedom to me means to no external pressures to do anything. Or being in stations of where you're not in control. Freedom to me means being in control without external influences.

    Islam is not designed to oppress women, ask any devout Muslim woman and she will tell you she feels liberated in her niqaab as she is not just seen as a sexual object by society. Majority of the Muslim women I know claim to be liberated by Islam.

    Check out:
    YouTube - White Woman From Texas becomes a Muslim
    YouTube - Being a Mexican Muslim
    YouTube - Your a Muslim???
    YouTube - MY STORY - HOW I CAME TO ISLAM
    YouTube - Lisa Martella (LMartella) - Her Path to Islam
    YouTube - Amy: University Student Converts to Islam (1 of 2)
    YouTube - Carolyne from England converts to Islam
    YouTube - Amina: A Muslim Convert in the UK
    YouTube - Angela Collins - Muslim Convert weeks after 9/11 Incident

    Majority of the convert to Islam are actually women, more women convert to Islam then men.

  3. #113
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Hard hypothetical question normally I don't like answering hypothetical questions I see them as traps. Anyway... I can tell you one thing. If I was a Muslim women, then I would have no comprehension of how its like to be a Muslim man, and the freedom that comes with it. So therefore if I haven't experienced the joys of it. Then I'd be content with my Muslim female role. Although if things became really bad for me and really crap, I would properly slowly put doubt into my husbands mind about his beliefs, and make him realize religion is fake. There's no mythological being in the sky waiting to punish you for precised transgressions against him. I'd try me best to live with it until it was unbearable. I'd probably commit suicide, if it became too hard for me.
    You don't think you would be able to observe the freedoms men have that you lacked just because you never experienced them yourself or that you'd be aware of the freedoms other women have that you would not have?

    That would be like saying that I cannot comprehend what I am missing out on by not having national healthcare in my country because I have never lived in a country with national healthcare.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #114
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Islam is not designed to oppress women, ask any devout Muslim woman and she will tell you she feels liberated in her niqaab as she is not just seen as a sexual object by society. Majority of the Muslim women I know claim to be liberated by Islam.
    What are they supposed to say? it is haram to question any ruling from allah and not all women want to show that she questions such a fundamental rule....yet look around at all the muslim women who actually don't wear it at all? if it is so liberating why do they not?

    I used to wear it lol so I know it doesn't feel liberating at all, it feels opressive, it suffocates, and it is a constant reminder of a womans station in life. You try peering out at the men breathing freely and strolling in the sun, knowing you haven't the right to it.:rolli:

    I also questioned muslim women around me all the time about wether they were happy, even the most religious of them, to me as another woman, admitted she would have a burn the hijab day just like a burn the bra day if all of a sudden it was revealed that hijab wasn't commanded.

    Majority of them do it for love, not for belief in it.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You don't think you would be able to observe the freedoms men have that you lacked just because you never experienced them yourself or that you'd be aware of the freedoms other women have that you would not have?

    That would be like saying that I cannot comprehend what I am missing out on by not having national healthcare in my country because I have never lived in a country with national healthcare.
    If you haven't experienced something ever in your life. For example you've never smoked crack by being barred from smoking it since you were born it not having your freedom taken away. As you have no concept of how it feels its normal.

    For example, if a woman gave birth to a child and we put this child into a room and never let it out of the room, the child has no concept of the outside world. Now if you take the child out of this room send him outside then he will tell you that was true freedom, when in reality it might be something mundane to us, like going to the park as we can experience this all the time. In essence what I am saying is freedom is subjective.

  6. #116
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    If you haven't experienced something ever in your life. For example you've never smoked crack by being barred from smoking it since you were born it not having your freedom taken away. As you have no concept of how it feels its normal.

    For example, if a woman gave birth to a child and we put this child into a room and never let it out of the room, the child has no concept of the outside world. Now if you take the child out of this room send him outside then he will tell you that was true freedom, when in reality it might be something mundane to us, like going to the park as we can experience this all the time. In essence what I am saying is freedom is subjective.
    No, but say you watched someone smoke crack and you heard people talking about what it was like to smoke crack. You can't keep someone from a concept of what something might be like to experience without totally isolating them from that. The only way a woman could be isolated from knowledge of the freedom that men and women not in her environment experience would be to totally isolate her from all life outside of her home and she could not be made aware of the man leaving the home or having any experiences outside the home or she would realize that she does not have the same freedoms he has.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    What are they supposed to say? it is haram to question any ruling from allah and not all women want to show that she questions such a fundamental rule....yet look around at all the muslim women who actually don't wear it at all? if it is so liberating why do they not?
    Your arguments are strange to me. How can you have a perspective of what someone is going to say? you can't say every Muslim woman will feel like this. Its a fallacy of generalizations. My argument is if Islam is oppressive for women, 1.) why aren't Muslim women leaving Islam on mass 2.) why is it that the majority of the people converting to Islam are women. You relate something from your perspective and try to project that as a logical argument. Its more so based on emotions and feels, then logic. Hence why I have a hard time sympathizing with you.


    I used to wear it lol so I know it doesn't feel liberating at all, it feels opressive, it suffocates, and it is a constant reminder of a womans station in life. You try peering out at the men breathing freely and strolling in the sun, knowing you haven't the right to it.:rolli:
    Well theres 100s of women who would argue against it.

    See: "Why do Muslim women wear the hijab?"

    I also questioned muslim women around me all the time about wether they were happy, even the most religious of them, to me as another woman, admitted she would have a burn the hijab day just like a burn the bra day if all of a sudden it was revealed that hijab wasn't commanded.
    I don't know what kind of women you're talking to. Why don't you post on an Islamic forum in a women's only section and ask the same questions. I highly doubt you would get the same respection as you claim. Particularly when you tell them you're an ex Muslim.

    Majority of them do it for love, not for belief in it.
    So you have the prospective of the majority of the women who convert to Islam?

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    No, but say you watched someone smoke crack and you heard people talking about what it was like to smoke crack. You can't keep someone from a concept of what something might be like to experience without totally isolating them from that. The only way a woman could be isolated from knowledge of the freedom that men and women not in her environment experience would be to totally isolate her from all life outside of her home and she could not be made aware of the man leaving the home or having any experiences outside the home or she would realize that she does not have the same freedoms he has.
    We can't say what ever single person would do. Some women like Islam and believe it gives them freedom and others believe it doesn't. And my argument is freedom is subjective. As my arguments conclusion follows logically from my arguments premises. So we can't really argue about what is freedom, as different people precive freedom differently. For exmple, take the Muslim convert to Islam, who lived a western life style and never covered. And then all of a sudden after learning about Islam converted to Islam and started wearing the hijab. A person would never knowing take away their own freedom.

  9. #119
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    We can't say what ever single person would do. Some women like Islam and believe it gives them freedom and others believe it doesn't. And my argument is freedom is subjective. As my arguments conclusion follows logically from my arguments premises. So we can't really argue about what is freedom, as different people precive freedom differently. For exmple, take the Muslim convert to Islam, who lived a western life style and never covered. And then all of a sudden after learning about Islam converted to Islam and started wearing the hijab. A person would never knowing take away their own freedom.
    Yeah, the concept of freedom is a whole 'nuther debate, but what I'm saying is this:
    If I was a Muslim women, then I would have no comprehension of how its like to be a Muslim man, and the freedom that comes with it. So therefore if I haven't experienced the joys of it. Then I'd be content with my Muslim female role.
    just isn't accurate. Only someone completely devoid of imagination would be unable to comprehend the difference between the life men and women outside the culture live unless they are completely isolated from it. I don't think even you are that devoid of imagination.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #120
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, the concept of freedom is a whole 'nuther debate, but what I'm saying is this:
    Actually, I think he defines it here;

    freedom to me means to no external pressures to do anything. Or being in stations of where you're not in control. Freedom to me means being in control without external influences.

    Then goes on to contradict his own version of freedom with every post. *shrug* I would say the logic of him not allowing others to have his version of freedom more or less means he doesn't believe in his own version of freedom. I take comfort in knowing he will never have it either, from his own choicess, while I take discomfort in knowing he'll take it away from someone else just for that reason... like a petulant child, at that.

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