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  1. #91
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Is this a joke? Are you exhibiting a sense of humour? Or was the above a serious statement?


    Honestly, I'm trying to see the other side of the argument (my first mistake), but if such an other side exists I don't think you are representative of it, Sona. Not from what little I've read, anyway...

    Uh, that's what I said and when I did I was accused of making a strawman point.

    ETA. As far as I can tell there are three possibilities here about Sona:

    1. This is a person who has negative feelings about Islam and is trying to make a caricature of the worst aspects of Islamic men.

    2. This is a someone trolling to get emotional reactions out of people, mainly women.

    3. Sona is just a crazy mixed up kid, even though he says he is into his 20s already.

  2. #92
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Uh, that's what I said and when I did I was accused of making a strawman point.
    Well...he hadn't yet dug such a deep hole for himself when I posted that.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    1. This is a person who has negative feelings about Islam and is trying to make a caricature of the worst aspects of Islamic men.
    Yeah, maybe this is Sasha Baron Cohen with a new role.

  3. #93
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Well...he hadn't yet dug such a deep hole for himself when I posted that.

    Believe me, he had in other threads. He is like a one track recording.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Believe me, he had in other threads. He is like a one track recording.
    Basically you're intolerant of other cultures. The problem is, you have different ethics and morals to me. These ethics and morals are not universal for everyone. You're trying to judge be based on your ethics and morals, i.e. on what you think is acceptable. You know, in Brazil there are tribes living in the jungle and the women walk about nude i.e. topless, we might find this abhorrent on a moral level. However, who are we to judge them? in their society and culture that is perfectly acceptable. Similarly, the tribe I come from was uncivilized only in the past 300 - 400 years have we learned to assimilate into a civilization just 200 years ago my tribe practiced headhunting, and mainly its the religion of Islam which gives us some kind of order. The behavior I display on here is perfectly "normal" to me culturally speaking. However, religiously speaking its too blunt i.e. we don't follow informal rules. We talk like warriors, you don't eat from my house and I don't eat from your house - the respected is based on that, its about ripping the other persons head off if he gives you shit. And I like that, its part of my culture and tradition my forefathers lived like this. Hence why even today their legacy lives on.

    When a person like Alexander has to say this about my forefathers:
    I am involved in the land of a leonine and brave people, where every foot of the ground is like a well of steel, confronting my soldier. You have brought only one son into the world, but everyone in this land can be called an Alexander. - Alexander described his encounters with trans-Indus tribes. In a letter to his mother.

    After he had met my forefathers and had to fight them, his soldiers refused to go any further. So inevitably his conquest had to be abandoned.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Yes....heart is intolerant of other cultures.......that's what the problem is here. :rolli:

    Oh and the naked tribes rock compared to islamic idiocy.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Yes....heart is intolerant of other cultures.......that's what the problem is here. :rolli:

    Oh and the naked tribes rock compared to islamic idiocy.
    The women have no self respect.

  7. #97
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think there is something to be said about understanding how ingrained a particular way of thinking must be in a particular culture, as it is not just laid over top of the culture but often was part of the way of thinking that the culture needed to develop in order to survive. So to change the way of thinking often leaves the individual members feeling like they will not survive the rigors of life.

    (This is the sort of mentality where George Bush thought he could just impose American-style thinking overtop the Iraq culture and realized that it wasn't just a matter of adopting a new philosophy of politics and life but would run counter to centuries of mentality that was developed to enable Iraq to survive as a nation.)

    However, I do not think this means that any culture is beyond criticism just because it can play the "You don't understand us" card. For example, I think that female genital mutilation is something that should be banned from any culture, regardless of the reasons it might have evolved as a practice.

    And the same might apply to Muslim misogyny and propagation of violence. I do not dream that it's as easy as telling men to "Treat women better" and "Stop being violent," as culturally it might feel that an individual will be rejected and/or even harmed if they do not continue in the traditional mindset -- personal survival and security feels at stake -- but I do believe that things can improve and need to be improved.

    I think criticism of any culture is valid, if they're to change and grow and leave behind the ill-suited and needless survival mechanisms of a past world.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #98
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    Basically you're intolerant of other cultures.
    In one of my earliest posts on this forum I wrote that "...that's one thing about the British empire...the English were never afraid to say 'Our culture is better' and mean it."

    Many in the West are squeamish about expressing such an 'intolerant view.' I am not. Then again, Kipling is one of my favorite authors.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think there is something to be said about understanding how ingrained a particular way of thinking must be in a particular culture, as it is not just laid over top of the culture but often was part of the way of thinking that the culture needed to develop in order to survive. So to change the way of thinking often leaves the individual members feeling like they will not survive the rigors of life.
    Yes.

    (This is the sort of mentality where George Bush thought he could just impose American-style thinking overtop the Iraq culture and realized that it wasn't just a matter of adopting a new philosophy of politics and life but would run counter to centuries of mentality that was developed to enable Iraq to survive as a nation.)
    The whole strategy was messed up. They are attacking a nation and at the same time talking about "winning hearts and minds" thats just stupid. The Iraqis ain't fighting for Saddam or Iraq. They are fighting for their survival. Which the bush administration completely overlooks.

    However, I do not think this means that any culture is beyond criticism just because it can play the "You don't understand us" card. For example, I think that female genital mutilation is something that should be banned from any culture, regardless of the reasons it might have evolved as a practice.

    I can't agree with you. Who gives you the authority to claim what is right or wrong? What about these same people claim in the western world women wearing skirts should be banned abortion should be banned. etc. What makes your ethics or morals superior to theirs? this is the reason why I say religions like Islam work if the whole world was converted to Islam forcibly or not it would be a good thing. As then everyone would have universal ethics and morals. There's some implications to this of enforcing an ideology violently on others, which is bad. However I see it as the lesser evil. I'd much rather prefer a one world government/ideology that all humans follow universally. As opposed to have all sorts of different morals and ethics.

    And the same might apply to Muslim misogyny and propagation of violence. I do not dream that it's as easy as telling men to "Treat women better" and "Stop being violent," as culturally it might feel that an individual will be rejected and/or even harmed if they do not continue in the traditional mindset -- personal survival and security feels at stake -- but I do believe that things can improve and need to be improved.
    Its not about violence in Islam, a woman has to be subservient to a man and she has to play the traditional role of being a woman. However she does have a right education and freedom. The Quran does give permission to the husband to beat his disobedient wife or whom is doing ill-conduct. Then you're allowed to discipline her, although there are rules to wife beating in Islam

    I think criticism of any culture is valid, if they're to change and grow and leave behind the ill-suited and needless survival mechanisms of a past world.
    I think Islam should be imposed on everyone.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    I can't agree with you. Who gives you the authority to claim what is right or wrong? What about these same people claim in the western world women wearing skirts should be banned abortion should be banned. etc. What makes your ethics or morals superior to theirs? this is the reason why I say religions like Islam work if the whole world was converted to Islam forcibly or not it would be a good thing. As then everyone would have universal ethics and morals. There's some implications to this of enforcing an ideology violently on others, which is bad. However I see it as the lesser evil. I'd much rather prefer a one world government/ideology that all humans follow universally. As opposed to have all sorts of different morals and ethics.
    Religion has attempted and failed often to conquer tribalism, imposing Islam on the world will not end the division, will not create worldwide morals and ethics, as even within islam the sects are divided, it always happens, human nature ensures it will always be so.

    One part of islam (pakistani) thinks if a man rapes yours, you have a right to rape one of his, whereas other islamic nations do not, all muslim nations, all still with differing morality, within christianity came division, within judaism came division, within islam it was written that there would be division, you sound like the dreamy idealist here, not me.




    Its not about violence in Islam, a woman has to be subservient to a man and she has to play the traditional role of being a woman. However she does have a right education and freedom. The Quran does give permission to the husband to beat his disobedient wife or whom is doing ill-conduct. Then you're allowed to discipline her, although there are rules to wife beating in Islam
    I know the rules aswell as you Sona, she has to play a subserviant role because she is subserviant "Treat women well for they are like domestic ainimals" right?, the rules to beating? Forget the rules, it's a beating, women don't need to be beaten as if they are children.


    I think Islam should be imposed on everyone.
    I hope that day never comes.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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