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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Default The place where spontaneity does not exist

    I am opening this thread to serve as place where J can discuss the ways of organising things.
    Also I am sure that Ps will probably roll eyes because of some posts.
    But they are free to use the thread if they have something smart to say.
    Some of them could even find this thread to be quite enlightening/useful.

    I will ask a few general questions to start the conversation.


    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?
    For an example how do you measure if you room is clean and odrerly and what has to happen for you to think that it is not?

    As I do things I create disorder and if I can't get things back in original place in less then 10 minutes the place in in status of disorder.


    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless)


    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation)


    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting ?


    5. How much organisation is too much organisation?


    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place?


    There is no need to answer all question.

  2. #2
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post


    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?
    For an example how do you measure if you room is clean and odrerly and what has to happen for you to think that it is not?
    Organization is kind of a loaded term for me. It doesn't necessarily require specific categorization beyond having a basic sense for where things are in my home/workspace.

    It follows then that 'disorder' is the absence of knowing where things are. Losing my car keys. Forgetting a handout for a meeting. Disorder is an extension of stress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless)
    At work, I try to keep my attention focused on my current task. If I need to collaborate with others, we try to keep things open-ended against our deadline. Setting mini 'updates' via email is usually a pretty efficient way at approximating where everyone is at.

    If someone is lagging behind (and it could compromise our shared bottom line), I try to make myself available. If it's a big deal, I'll try to incorporate additional workforce to help rectify the problem (great way to network with new people, too).

    I don't like forcing others into accomodating my methods. I generally keep an upbeat attitude towards groupwork, as negativity can pollute productivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation)
    I try to keep a short list of my most important weekly items. Beyond that, I find lists encumbering. I hate grocery lists.

    Lists are good for remembering global points, critical to an issue. Kind of like a cheat sheet. Otherwise, I don't find them useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting ?
    Adaptation is remaining open to possibility. Flexibility in organization is key to striking this balance. Cleaving to a pet system is often a difficult sell to peers. It can create tension and stunt thoughtful communication.

    It's important to adhere to a routine that works for you. Respecting this principle in others is the final expression of this maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    5. How much organisation is too much organisation?
    When it compromises your objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place?
    Makes it easier to do other stuff.

  3. #3
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?
    For an example how do you measure if you room is clean and odrerly and what has to happen for you to think that it is not?

    If there are more things out of place than not. If there is excessive amounts of or not enough of a particular thing.

    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless) Honestly? I do it myself.


    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation) Lists on paper or in some other spot (email, cell phone).


    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting ? I think it is. I also thing it's a coping mechanism. You can control organization of a space. You can't always control things outside of that.


    5. How much organisation is too much organisation? I suppose when it starts to effect other things, relationships with people, work, happiness. When it becomes all encompassing or an addiction.


    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place? For myself, I don't have enough time in the day to be dicking around with disorganization or things being done inefficiently. I have to give leeway to the people in my home but only to a point.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  4. #4
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?
    For an example how do you measure if you room is clean and odrerly and what has to happen for you to think that it is not?
    There are two type of organization.

    First as Night pointed out, organized in knowing where things are so you can find it and work efficiently. The second sort of "organized" is a subtype of the first, in the conventional sense of everything filed away, neat as pin approach.

    My room usually falls under the first group but not within the second. I know where things are (most of the time) but the room is stacked full of junk. In its natural state it's rarely conventionally "clean" so I have to tidy up if I have visitors and what not. The other occasion I clean is when I realized I ran out of desk space because of my piles. Then it's time to store it/throw stuff away... or to combine piles and stack things higher.

    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless)
    Depends on the situation... If it really bothers me and I have time, I get it started for them... hopefully the momentum is enough to jolt them along. Otherwise, nothing. I ignore it.

    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation)
    I jolt down random things on post-it notes sometimes and leave them in a stack on my desk... although I'm starting to use rememberthemilk, which is an online to-do list. Have it send me email reminders to make sure I don't lose track of time.

    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting ?
    I'd say efficiency... if your organization doesn't save you time and effort over time, then it's pointless implementing it. You'll eventually stop because you can't be bothered to continue.

    5. How much organisation is too much organisation?
    Wasted time.

    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place?
    Fairly obvious... Get things done a little faster?

    There is no need to answer all question.
    Oh now you tell me...
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  5. #5
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The schema is chaos to order to creativity to presence.

    And each depends on the one before - in other words, they build on each other.

    Or you might say, this is a schema of growth and development.

    For instance we are born without control of our emotions or even our sphincter.

    So our parents put us in nappies and modulate our emotions for us.

    Then they teach us to control our own sphincter. And they teach us how to modulate our own emotions.

    So for about 22 years we are learning how to control ourselves, often in sophisticated ways such as learning to read and write.

    But at about 22 we reach the peak of control.

    And what should we do then?

    We and our parents are proud of the control we have achieved starting from chaos. And in fact we are so proud, we have no intention of giving up control.

    But to develop our creativity this is precisely what we must do - we must learn to give up control and return to control, at will.

    In other words, creativity is learning how to enter spontaneity and how to leave spontaneity, when we wish.

    This is of course a highly dramatic moment - for if we fail, we fall back to boredom, depression and authoritarianism.

    But if we succeed, we are free.

    And look around you - it is fear of freedom that stands in your way.

    And most important, the growth from chaos to order provides a template for moving from control to creativity. And the growth from control to creativity provides a template for moving from creativity to presence.

    But what comes after presence, I don't know.

  6. #6
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?

    Generally, for me, order is when things are in their right places. Disorder is when they're not.


    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless)

    Get annoyed.


    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation)

    I make lists - usually on Word documents on the computer. If I'm going out I take a handwritten list.


    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting?

    Has an impact, but isn't everything by any means.


    5. How much organisation is too much organisation?

    NEVER ENOUGH!!


    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place?

    It makes me calm and serene.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  7. #7
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    As for the room example: That is how I define orderr and disorder but I can live with certain level of disorder. Since my logic that is quite impractical to have everything totally organised down to last detail.
    But my room is never is a state of complete mess.

  8. #8
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    1. How to you measure what is order and what disorder?
    For an example how do you measure if you room is clean and odrerly and what has to happen for you to think that it is not?

    There is a strong correlation between organization and efficiency in my mind. If it requires the least amount of effort to find what I need or to get across the room unimpeded, then it is organized. Disorder makes more work at every small turn. I will say though that if the organization is more effort than what it saves, then I toss the system for something easier. I have all kinds of imaginings about the self-cleaning house which includes garbage chutes that get the mess to its final destination, or bathrooms that have high pressured water sprays to instantly clean. I don't live in such a place, but try to make things as simple as possible. Visually speaking, if I don't have to see too much detail then my eyes can rest in the location, so I love the idea of cupboards and closets with closing doors and curtains. Sometime I look for where the piles naturally form and put a toybox or cupboard in which to place the naturally forming pile.

    2. How you deal with situations where people don't want to accept solution because it takes alot of time, energy and planning? (or they are just reckless)
    I would just do the planning/organizing myself if possible. I am the most organized person in my family and when I was a little girl, I used to be the one to pack the car for road trips and moves because I knew I could make things more comfortable by maximizing space, and make things easier to get to. No one else cared too much about it, but I think everyone benefited.

    3. Do you make lists on paper or you are keeping everything in your head ?
    (In the case that there is no too much facts and complexity in a situation)

    I have to make lists because arbitrary details do not stay in my mind. Even a list of three groceries is too much because i get lost in thought easily. I get anxious when I have to hold pithy details in my head. If I write them down, then I can focus on other things and relax.

    4. What do you think about idea that organisation is the key to adapting ?
    I agree. It has to be the right system though. There are forms of organization that are too rigid to allow for change. The most adaptable systems tend to have an elegant premise of simplicity and ease of maintaining. There are examples of this found throughout nature.

    5. How much organisation is too much organisation?
    When it is no longer a means to an end, but the end itself. Although I will confess to indulging in that when dealing with something I love and enjoy like organizing my music.

    6. Why do you want things organised in the first place?
    To simplify life
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Alpha Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The place where spontaneity does not exist
    Somebody, please nuke it!
    Hit like a heavyweight, breathe deep, meditate
    Make the whole crowd get loud, make 'em levitate
    I ride through my city like a presidential candidate
    L-A-X, Phantom double-R, and accelerate

  10. #10
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Prime View Post
    Somebody, please nuke it!
    Wouldn't that take considerable planning?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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